Just been to a very bizarre "puppy party" at the vets!!

[JulietBravoJuliet]

Got invited to a puppy party and thought we may as well go along. I was expecting it to be several puppies playing together, but there was me and one other couple with their puppy; we basically sat on chairs with the pups on leads and were lectured on feeding them. Apparently, my choice of Fish4Dogs puppy food, topped with NatureDiet isn't adequate, and I need to immediately switch my pup to Hills Science Diet, as this is the best available! I questioned this, as I know the first listed ingredient in Hills is maize, and this is not something I want to feed my dogs, but she continued parroting that it's what they recommend and all feed to their own dogs. She placed a handful of the wonderful puppy kibble in front of my little Bandit, who, bless him, turned him nose up at it

She then went on to try and sell us puppy toothpaste, puppy pads, flexi-leads and toys. So basically it was just a sales evening, a bit like being at a Tupperware party, or Ann Summers except the toys weren't as good and I've come away feeling a bit disappointed that what I thought was going to be a nice sociable evening, was in fact an opportunity to try and get me to part with money. Very odd experience!

I think to lump all puppy parties, all vets and all nurses on all topics together as being shit is very unfair.
Some of us read widely about food and are aware of the benefits and disadvantages of a wide variety of feeding, personally I think there is no one solution that suits every go and every family.
Equally training and behaviour, I have a nurse who has a diploma qualification in dog behaviour and several of my staff have extensive experience of good quality dog training. We are aware of our limitations and regular refer to a APDT, APBC and ABTC trainers and behaviourists.
Seeing so many people who think their 'ickle wickle' puppy needs no training or that Bakers Tat is the best food on a daily basis you at least try to educate them to open their eyes.
The benefit of puppy parties is that they build trust with people without them having to pay money in the hope that gradually we can improve the lot of the vast majority of the UK's dogs.

Thank you Lonecat for so eloquently saying what I wanted to :)

Have to agree. As I said upthread, the best puppy course I ever attended was run by a veterinary surgery and facilitated by an extremely experienced and knowledgeable vet nurse - you can't tar all surgeries with the same brush.

If you do your research and walk away from any that don't feel right and are basically just a puppy free-for-all or seem to be just a sales evening, as in the OP you can't go too far wrong.

As for food. I'm not a big fan of Hills/Science Plan for your average healthy pet dog, but it has it's place for some health conditions and I know of several dogs with health issues that have done really well on certain varieties. I do wish canine nutrition was considered more important and given more time in veterinary training, but there are plenty of vets out there like Lonecat and affafantoosh who do their own research and keep up with recent studies etc.

Again, don't tar all vets with the same brush, I for one couldn't deal with the type of people Lonecat describes - and worse - on a daily basis without losing my sanity.

Moosemama weekly I have to go to my inner special place as the owner of the new husky cross puppy tells me they don't think they really need to go to puppy class, because they are going to dominant the dog.

On the food side, why do vets sell hills if they don't make more profit than other foods?
if the findings of the www.dogfoodanalysis.com website is correct its almost poison!

That site contains reviews based on the opinion of the editors of the site - as for who they are we can only guess.

Truly unbiased research into canine nutrition does not exist. There is a strong argument that grain is an unnecessary component of dog food. I feel there is a real need for more research into raw diets as these seem ot agree with many dogs. However, it is undeniable that the overwhelming majority of healthy elderly dogs in my practice have been fed a cereal-based proprietary commercial food (which most food comparison sites would rate very poorly) all of their lives.

Everyone has to make up their own minds. I repeat, most vets stock foods based on who manufactures the prescription diets they need.

When you say do your research Moosemama - who better to ask and trust that a professional who should know about nutrition of animals and training of animals than a vet?

The problem is a large percentage of vets give out incorrect information on both topics - you can not blame the customers for listening to them and acting on their advice which can be just wrong.

I know there are fantastic vets but there are a lot that still are causing major problems with the advice they dish out.

Obviously MN vets are not any of these

Affantosh re diet many people are not able to make up their own mind and again turn to the professionals for advice.

There should be researched non bias advice that vets can give out to clients on simple issues like nutrition.

I won't deny for a minute that there is a problem with vets having inadequate knowledge of some topics, or in fact just giving advice when they should really say "I don't know".

I do object to this casual assumption that we are all ignorant, money-grabbing heartless crooks. Some are a bit crap, some are pretty good, most are in between. I will say what I always say on these threads - build a relationship with your vet so there's two way communication and trust. This is my aim with every client so I can give them the service they want, even if that is different to what the next client wants. It is nigh on impossible to achieve a good relationship with a client if they treat your suggestions and advice with suspicion.

mutty there should be but there isn't. Pet food companies pour huge amounts of funding into research. Nobody ever researches the alternatives such as RMB. Who would fund that? Exactly ... nobody because there's no money to be made.

As a vet I will discuss the options with people but if they want me to tell them what's best then they will be disappointed. There is not enough evidence for me to be able to say "X is better than Y" - what is left is just my opinion.

I am aware that not all vets give rubbish behavioural/training/nutritional advice. Hence my use of the word "generally".

"Who would fund that? Exactly ... nobody because there's no money to be made."

I disagree - companies like Natures Menu seem to be expanding rapidly (including into the veterinary world, I had a chat recently with a desperately keen NM rep!) so I don't think it will be long before we see decent scientific studies about raw/BARF feeding.

Frankly Hills is still an awful lot better than most of the stuff on the supermarket shelves.

New puppy owners are bombarded with so much information on their first trip to the vet - even the most engaged will only take on board snippets of that information, sadly a good number of owners couldn't give a stuff and will continue doing whatever they've been doing for the last X years no matter what we do (and view us with suspicion if we advise otherwise as we must just be money-grabbing).

If in an hour's chaotic puppy party we manage to get people to have even a brief think about what they choose to feed their dog, to get them to take a leaflet for a local dog trainer who we know uses good modern methods and to understand even in the most vague sense that there is such a thing as a socialisation window then I consider that very successful.

That's fair enough toboldlygo but I stand by my point that research isn't unbiased. So I can tell clients what we know, but I can't tell them that is the whole story because there is an agenda behind everything. I am pleased to hear NM are making ground though!

I agree re the bombarding though - people seem to fall into two broad camps - the "all ears" ones who will be completely overwhelmed by all of the information they are so keen to take on board, and those who have done it before and aren't for changing. I warn people that having a puppy is like having a baby - everyone's suddenly an expert.

I agree mutty, most people will go to the their vets for advice, as they are the obvious professional. Some will be lucky and find a good vet, others will luck out and find a poor one, most will find an OK one and some will do whatever they want regardless of what the vet has to say. For new or inexperienced owners it's very hard for them to know which is which and unfortunately, like it or not, a large proportion will be giving out inaccurate advice re things like nutrition.

Responsible owners will do their own research and make up their own minds. I for one find it so much easier to research things now we have the internet and the majority of people have internet access these days.

There will always be irresponsible owners and know-it-alls that refuse to consider any way other than their own.

Independent research on things like nutrition are unlikely to happen, as the studies have to be funded by someone and that is usually a pet food manufacturer/provider. Even Nature's Menu have a vested interest in producing research results that prove raw is best (not saying that it isn't by the way - just that their research would also be biased).