My rescue dog has just bitten someone

[LastTango]

We are not having a lot of luck with our 2 rescue dogs - we got them last Saturday. On the advice of Dogs Trust the Yorkie went back because she constantly full-on attacked the JRT.

Tonight the JRT bit someone when he was out on his evening walk. My son said he went for her flappy trousers, but bit into her leg. Oh shit!

"This lady saw him, and moved to the edge of the pavement and stopped"

The lady actually moved aside to the edge of the pavement? Yet despite being on the lead, the dog was able to not only reach her, but also sniff her (presumably allowed to stop and sniff her) and then bite her?

You say your son is an experienced dog owner, but in just one week of having this dog ... instead of being given loads and loads of time and space to build confidence. become part of the family and learn the home dynamics ... he has been subjected to fussing and space invasion by many strangers, both outside and within the home. A dog which, we are told up-thread, has already been through a lot. Now he's bitten someone.

In my opinion, this is your son's fault (or yours, I'm not sure which).

If you and he want to fix this (and I see you've already sent another one back, so realise you may not want to) then you need to go right back to square one and start to give this little dog the time, space and respect that you should have given him in the first place. Get professional advice and support (by veterinary recommendation, perhaps), follow it diligently and give him time. Lots. Yes, socialisation will be part of this, but in a quiet controlled manner as his confidence and security increases.

I'm sorry if I sound cross, but I guess I am a bit. Every time these dogs are re-homed and it fails, it gets a bit harder and a bit more stressful for them.

Good luck little dog and LastTango.

A nip is very different from a full on bite. A dog I was bitten by was eventually pts as he'd bitten too many people and made holes in them. I assumed that the bite was my fault and that I hadn't been reading the dog. A lot of dogs are very, very afraid and for the main, this can be managed.

affafantoosh I have to disagree with your post.

We fuck the dogs up and then tell ourselves that they are too damaged and that pts is the best for the dog. Bollocks, it is the best for us as a society because we can not treat animals humanely or educate ourselves to look after them correctly.

I have been working with dogs for decades and been involved with rehabilitating hundreds of "aggressive" dogs over the years. Only one has ever needed to be put down and that was due to a brain tumour affecting his behaviour.

Whether people can be arsed to put in the time is another matter but do not kid yourself that we are doing the best for the dogs by giving up on them (when we caused the problem in the first place) and putting them to sleep.

I don't disagree with your general principle muttynutty, but there are some cold harsh realities to face. For example, a not uncommon progression would be:

Person A "fucks the dog up" - through neglect, through mistreatment, through ignorance, through lack of training, whatever.

Person B takes on dog with best of intentions; inadvertently makes things worse through inexperience of issues/bad advice from so-called expert and struggles to cope; surrenders dog to rescue organisation at end of tether.

Person C rehomes dog from rescue with incomplete knowledge of issues; discovers serious problem e.g. biting. Person C has small child and feels unable to risk child's safety; returns dog to rescue at end of tether.

Rescue try to work with dog but resources are stretched and dog does not respond well to kennel environment. Behaviour escalates; rescue take decision to PTS on behavioural grounds.

Should persons B and C beat themselves up for evermore for trying, just because they didn't have the experience or the resources or, in the case of keeping a child safe, the time to work intensively on the dog's issues? It isn't always as simple as "can't be arsed".

For example, we have a rescue with issues, one of which is separation anxiety. We are working on this along with his other problems and it is improving slowly. Our rental lease says we can only keep pets if they do not cause nuisance to the neighbours. One neighbour has already mentioned that he has heard the dog barking when left alone. We try to keep the occasions when he is left to a minimum but it's for his own good to learn the sky won't fall in if he is, plus it isn't always avoidable - I work full time, my DH has regular medical appointments. I love the dog to bits and we have spent hundreds on vets bills and behaviorists but I will not be made homeless because of him, so if we can't get to the bottom of his problems and the neighbours complain to the landlord in future, the dog would have to go. My disabled DH having a roof over his head is more important than the dog when the chips are down.

It's not rocket science though is it?
I had a collie/lurcher from the border collie trust when I was 18yo, a dog which had a huge amount of issues some which were never really resolved (the running off/escapism) but we worked with what we had and she was a fantastic dog and I miss her terribly. You need patience with a rescue dog and it seems it something people don't have or don't want to have.

Sorry signyourname, that was not aimed you!

mutty, when the day comes that there are enough experienced, appropriate homes for these dogs then I'll be wholeheartedly in agreement with your sentiments. Unfortunately this isn't the case and these dogs are either languishing in kennels or inappropriately homed where they endure further stress and present a higher than usual risk to uneducated humans.

In my opinion (and i spend every working day watching a huge variety of human-animal interactions, and the lack of understanding the average owner shows towards their pets is truly depressing) we vets need to pour more effort into educating owners at puppy consults, encouraging appropriate socialisation and directing them to reliable sources of information and support. Without a huge improvement in good socialisation and habituation, dogs will continue to face a bleak future and poor chance of being adopted due to them having human-created problems.

I can understand that due to the nature of your work and the particular group of owners you deal with you probably get highly frustrated by the needless euthanasia of dogs which can be "fixed". But those owners with the commitment, determination and willingness to " fix" broken dogs are in the minority. We need to stop so many of them being broken in the first place and only then will euthanasia be something I rule out. Interestingly Debra Horwitz, who ran an aggression course I took a couple of years ago, agrees that in cases of abnormal aggression with a severe bite history euthanasia should be considered. It's a welfare issue.

There are loads more resources, books, videos, you tube lessons, training lessons, training clubs etc than there was 20 years ago, really things are so much easier to access, so things should be improving, not getting worse

I am most wtf at those remote control collar things atm. What are they? I have seen two dogs wearing them recently. What's wrong with teaching your dog they can rely on you and building a two way relationship with them? Isn't that the whole point

Any way I must do school run

But I don't like the reality and if we all just give up on the situation more dogs will suffer and more will be pts with the "its for the best" comment. Which I will never ever except.

I am not going to give up.

It does not take hours of commitment to "fix" dogs. Just a willingness to learn a few basic training methods and a small amount of knowledge on how dogs learn.

There are simple things all of us can do to make it easier to rehabilitate dogs with issues.

1. Train your own dog - do not let it approach any dog unless you have checked this is ok to do so. I took one of my foster dogs with "issues" to a major agility competition this weekend with over 1000 dogs. My dog only had positive experiences because the owners were sensible and polite with their dogs. The owners in the parks who have no control over their he just wants to play dogs are the ones that cause huge problems for 1000s of dogs. They are making it very difficult for people who do want to help dogs that have been mucked up by humans.

1. Give all dogs space.

1. Educate your children how to handle dogs or if they do not they to stay away.

TBH vets are also part of the problem, most have very little behavioural knowledge yet are prepared to vehemently tell owners what they need to do to "cure" their dogs behaviour be it early castration, poor nutritional guidance, or just incorrect training methods. They are the front line of call for many desperate owners and can just add to their misery.

I do not believe that it is an insurmountable problem - people's attitude need to change - they need to use their brain and not pain to train and dogs lives will be radically changed for the better.

Do not write off rescue dogs with issues, I have had ones that are now working in search and rescue, sniffer dogs, assistance dogs, hearing dogs, cancer detection dogs. All of these dogs could have been pts because it was better for them - it took some time, some effort but I know it was worth it.

I will never ever ever agree that it is the right thing to pts dogs that we have not got the time to rehabilitate.

I have studied with Debra Horwitz and she is a strong believer that society has caused the problem hence the need for education or else the alternative is more cases that will have to be pts and the welfare issue will escalate.

Speak to her about how many dogs can not be rehabilitated - she believes the major can.

I would not agree with everything that a Veterinary consultant for Nestle Purina PetCare says though!

major = majority

It does not take hours of commitment to "fix" dogs. Just a willingness to learn a few basic training methods and a small amount of knowledge on how dogs learn

And the time and patience to re-start after every knockback every time some numpty lets their badly-trained, badly-behaved dog career up to my (on-lead, under control) fear-aggressive boy and harrass and upset him despite all my counter-conditioning, distraction techniques, changes of direction etc. And that happens far more frequently than it should, and it's bloody disheartening.

The owners in the parks who have no control over their he just wants to play dogs are the ones that cause huge problems for 1000s of dogs. They are making it very difficult for people who do want to help dogs that have been mucked up by humans

Amen!

IMO mutty vets are responsible for a lot of these issues. Issuing restrictions on a puppy's movement at their vaccination consult without advising on appropriate socialisation and habituation is totally irresponsible. "First do no harm"... I think we have a golden opportunity but it's too often missed :(

Nipping dog.
Our 2 chi/dachs crosses are nearly 2 now and in the main well behaved. I used the distraction method when training them with treats to stop jumping up and to encourage correct behavior.
However Pepper the larger dog has started nipping men. He jumps at their trousers and nips their legs. He is the more adventurous dog but at the same time more nervous. Both dogs brought up together so i can only think a man has frightened him at some stage and i didn't notice. Pursuing the 'distraction' technique again but not always quick enough. This afternoon a man appeared suddenly from a side path in motorbike clothes and Pepper nipped the back of his leg. Is a muzzle a good idea?