Someone give me a virtual slap/ reassurance

[catbus]

Really struggling these last few days. Pup is 18 weeks now. I'm doing as much clicker training with her as poss. And training with treats. And yet, increasingly despite when we attempt to play with her using toys, when she obviously wants to, she bypasses them and just lunges at us.
I'm still working on her guarding things she's not supposed to chew, swapping for better things etc. And yet she is ignoring these and still baring teeth and biting aggressively.
On quite a few occasions she has just missed youngest DC's face, by snapping up at him just for being vaguely near.

I'm feeling quite overwhelmed today as I seem to be getting nowhere with 'modifying her behaviour'- there's so much I'm working on- lead pulling, barking madly at everyone/thing/dogs, jumping at them, lunging at wheels etc.

Tbh it's the apparent aggression I'm struggling with most- she scares me when she does it. And she often wakes up just 'on one'- I can tell she's going to get too full on and the nippy crap turns less playful, from the get go..
I realise she's a baby still but she is getting stronger and feistier by the day.
I'm keeping on keeping on, but please god tell me it gets better. Today is a shitty day and yet another one spent doing damage limitation and separating pup from DCs.

Sorry for the rant-
please tell me I'm not alone or bad to feel like this?

Are you working with a behaviourist/trainer at all? It sounds like there are a few things going on and it would be really good to have professional back-up, as it would increase your confidence in dealing with situations and help you improve your overall bond and control. I would really recommend getting help from either a trainer from the APBT or PPG or a behaviourist from www.apbc.org.uk/help/regions the APBC]].

What breed is she? (Apologies I have a terrible memory.) Also, how much exercise and training time are you able to give her every day and how are you tackling the barking and lunging etc?

... and you're not alone or bad. The first few months with a new puppy are blooming hard work and often feel stressful and thankless until they finally start 'getting' what you've been consistently teaching them. One day you will look back - having put in all the hard work - and realise you have a lovely, well behaved dog that's a pleasure to live with ... most of the time.

Would it help if I told you I found it exhausting with my pup this time last year and he's the 6th puppy (7th dog) I've had over around 25 years? The problem with pups is similar to babies - by the time you're ready to have another you've usually forgotten all the bad bits!

Thanks for replying
She's a Collie!

No, but I am looking into trainers/behaviourists as we speak.. Only a couple in my vague area by the looks of it.

Training- well, whenever she looks like she's gonna engage- throughout the day- clicker based mainly. She tends to be quite quiet in the day I guess- it's been quite hot and I think part of the problem is that she likes to sleep in the garden but gets woken/ alerted by passers by and the kids want to play in the garden too.
She does kip in crate in the day sometimes but is happier dozing outside! I'm frustrated as she gets woken a lot and upstairs is out of bounds (cats domain).

Atm she has a longer walk in the eve- it's cooler and less horseflies.. Got a long line as her recall still dodgy with distractions.
When she lunges at cars, I try to pre empt by holding her and distracting/ then clicking. Doesn't work with people/ dogs yet tho!

The barking- I'm trying to teach her to bark and to be quiet- unsuccessfully thus far.. Sorry for disjointed reply- on phone in garden with barking mutt

Hang in there is what I would say. Eric's not a biter (it was a bit of a bind when he was 14 weeks but it stopped when he got his teeth) He is always up to mischief though (he's just jumped on the table and helped himself to some of dh's dinner) Because our dc are older he gets plenty of peace and quiet and dd knows not to disturb him when he is snoozing but I'd say it gets better every week. Eric is 27 weeks now and picks up things really quickly and will do mostly what I ask for a piece of ham anyway .

She is still very very young and collies while bright are a challenging breed that need quite a lot of stimulation. I think you need a good trainer to support you, no one can do it alone and it will be beneficial for her to learn in an environment with other dogs. You also need a professional to assess what is going in, e.g. aggression is quite different from exuberance. Collies do tend to be exuberant and have strong herding instincts, which is what they have been bred for. They often need a lot more work than the average dog, closer to a working environment than a family environment. Do you have any experience of this breed?

An 18 week old collie is very clever, energetic and at times can be quite controlling

You need to be teaching her calm and settle then move this up to distractions. A great DVD to help would be Pup2perfection

This is aimed at all puppies but also a great grounding for dogs that will do dog sports. If you have a collie you will have to do something with it so this would be a good foundation.

You do sound slightly overwhelmed so getting a trainer would be fantastic but make sure that this is a positive trainer and no dominance pack theory as Collies are amazingly sensitive and can be traumatised easily

I think I'm having a shitty day as my knee appears to be twisted, so not helping my outlook atm..

Had Collie before- but not as a pup.

I feel for her right now as she is teething big time, so that must be making her feel crap- she's loving the frozen kongs

I shall have a look at the DVD, thanks. And yes, be good to get a decent trainer for support- I'm hoping to find one that could come to us as am without car for the most part.

She's never particularly bored and sometimes I worry that she's 'over stimulated' as all four kids are around most of the time- there's always someone to do training bursts and games.. (we HE)- the older two are great at occupying her with things to do

I feel terrible now- last week was epic and really felt like we were progressing positively..

Ah - I was thinking perhaps Collie when I read your OP. They are very high needs in terms of training/intelligence and exercise/energy and can also find family homes quite stressful, especially if there's a lot of noise/movement/stimulation throughout the day.

Do you ever get chance to take her out and train her without your dc around? She really needs quality 1:1 interaction and somewhere to rest/be secure away from your dcs. I would definitely advise finding a trainer/behaviourist to work with, as Mutty said, be sure to avoid anyone who mentions dominance or pack structure/theory as she's going to need sensitive handling.

Useful info re Border Collies as pets.

Don't feel terrible you are entitled not nipped in your own home. I think you are spot on she is over stimulated, collies will take what they can all the time.

6 Hours walk and mine will still drop a tennis ball on me when we get home

Do work on calms and settles. Impulse control is vital to a happy collie.

Don't feel terrible. Progress isn't always linear and a few bad days doesn't negate the progress you were making last week. Often it's just a case of keep-on-keeping on and try not to get stressed/anxious about the blips. If you are getting at all stressed when training/handling her, stop and go and do something else, as she'll pick up on the vibe and it will only make the session worse - far better to stop and come back to it when you are both feeling calm and relaxed than pressing ahead when it's doing neither of you any good.

It does sound like she could be getting overstimulated - she's still so young and will be needing some downtime and space to rest during the day. Often pups will seem to just get more and more chaotic and energetic, when what they really need is a nap.

I'm not a big fan of getting children involved in training at the basic/puppy level initially, purely because I think the children find it hard to be consistent and get the timing right and it can all get a bit too hectic and confusing for the pup. I tend to teach my pups the basics, then, once they have the idea, know the cues etc, I allow my older dcs to do some reinforcement/rewarding - under my supervision of course. Ds2 is 10 and he is very good at watching me and copying what I do and has also taken the time to read some relevant training and dog-communication books. Ds1 has ASD, so doesn't really get involved in training very often and dd (5) is only interested intermittently and then only does very little bits, with me in charge.

The good news is that, being a collie, she will be super-capable of learning - you just have to find the right way of communicating with/handling her. That's where a professional trainer (force free/positive) comes in - they will be able to give you both the skills and the confidence to handle the training and be there to support/advise you if any problems occur along the way.

I have a 9 month old Collie, I really feel for you. IT DOES GET BETTER!! Hang in there.

Things that have helped us - going to a puppy training class run by an excellent trainer. I have the professional back up to deal with any issues, pup gets training practice & he also gets the socialisation side of it as well. I think I will still be going to my weekly class when he is 10 years old as we both get so much out of it :)

Walking at least twice a day, 1 long walk in the morning off lead, say between 45 mins to an hour, and I cover a large distance in that time. We also walk to the shop, walk to look at puddles etc, short trips but a distraction that isn't too hectic. I see you are without a car, does pup come with you whenever you walk somewhere? A bit like a toddler sometimes a change of scene helps.

I'm not an expert but I wonder is she is overstimulated by constant attention from kids etc? My pup finds it very hard to switch off, he loves being outside watching the hens & kids but when he starts to go hyper I get him in his bed with a kong or similar to chew on.

Teach your kids to stand still & don't move if she tries to herd them, running & yelling just encourages Collies. If they stand like statues then she should hopefully just lie down & watch them.

As I said I'm not an expert, but I have some experience of Collies & recent experience of Collie puppies so if I can help in anyway please let me know.

I have massively x posted with everyone - was dealing with DCs while posting

Yes, I usually do eve walk with just me and my 11 yo- who's baby this is- she gives us space to do training and picks up tips- then runs like a loon with her afterward on the long line and with the ball thrower

I've been having to get the younger kids to play inside whilst she's dozing- she's been doing an awful lot of napping when she can, so it's good to know I wasn't being crazy about over stimulation!
Her happy snooze spots are somewhere in our (large) garden- or on the front door mat. It's a coax to get her to nap anywhere sensible. Totally nuts

Our Collie before was the most zen ever- from about 4!

I shall work on the calming in the meantime and fear not, I won't be going with some Cesar loony for training.

Whoops, thanks Kipper!

I may be in touch!

My Collie x only ever wanted to lie outside - all weathers, snow, ice, rain, thunderstorms she'd want to be out there lying in the middle of the lawn. She had a lovely soft warm bed in the house, but if she couldn't get outside she'd lie on the quarry tiles.

She was completely bonkers as a pup - it's a wonder she didn't turn my hair white - but turned into the most gorgeous settled girl once she matured, so don't lose hope.

If you want a good video on 'capturing calm' Google 'Kikopup Capturing Calm' - she uses her gorgeous Collie in the video too. (Sorry can't link at the moment.)

Thanks, Moose

I'm so scared of letting her down. DD isn't stepping up to the mark as much as I would like and so all the responsibility is naturally falling upon me.
I am scared of failing her and losing confidence- and you see so many six month plus Collies in rescue, too

I hope that if I find a good, reliable trainer/ expert, that I might feel much more solid about it all?

I feel a complete dillon now, having to ask on here so much when I wobble..
I don't really know what happened since last week to make me think 'Oh crap, what am I doing??'

Hopefully I will get me knee sorted and feel a bit more with it!
It's funny because we shared the responsibility of our last dog, but this time around it feels like I'm flying solo.

The fact that you're on here looking for advice shows that you're not going to let her down. I do think a good trainer is likely to be the key for you, if you can't get to classes.

I'm fairly experienced with dogs, yet I still have regular wobbles and need reassurance. Often I know what people on here and elsewhere then tell me, but sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees with my own dogs and often it's just my self-belief/confidence that's lacking.

If you're feeling overwhelmed, then I'd put money on your 11 year old dd feeling the same, if not worse, hence wanting to take a step back and let you lead the way. To be honest, 11 is very young to be taking responsibility for a pup up and if I were you I would just take over for now, including your dd as the pup masters the basics and instructing her on how to help positively reinforce the training she's learned.

Under the Animal Act 1971 the 'Keeper of a dog is: he /she owns the dog, or has it in his /her possession, or is the head of a household of which a member is under the age of 16 owns the dog or possess it. Such a person remains the keeper of a dog until someone else fulfils these qualifications and succeeds the other of keeping.'

So ultimately, under Law, she's your dog until your dd turns 16 anyway.

Oh gosh, no I wouldn't let her lead the way, but being more on the ball with her would be helpful!
To be fair, I've shown her some clicker work and she's bang on the money with timing

Catbus, I've been mulling over your situation all evening - what are you feeding pup? I found that certain dog foods sent my collie totally nuts, I was amazed the difference it made. I was avoiding the cheap & nasty Bakers type stuff as well. Iams also was a disaster.

I have found too much protein sends Kipper bonkers, I have moved him (age 8.5 months) from puppy food to normal dog food as it suits him much better. He gets a larger portion than suggested because he is still growing & needs it.

It is a process of trial & error to find what suits your dog the best, a good local pet shop that can let you try smaller amounts of food rather than 15kg sacks is very useful!

I have found that Skinners Field & Trial Maintenance suits Kipper the best (I'm sure people will have an opinion on that, it is one of the cheaper ones!) & I know they do a puppy food. Might be worth a look? I didn't use it myself as I couldn't get it where I am, as I'm not mainland UK.

Has anyone else got good suggestions for puppy food for Collies?

Could you make her a den in the garden? A crate with a blanket on 3 sides facing towards the quietest part of the garden? So she could be outside as she wants but a bit apart from all activity?