Dominance/Pack mentality

[DefiniteMaybe]

My dp was watching Cesar Milan on youtube last night and I just glanced over and said oh I've heard that his methods and thinking are out of date.
I don't really know anything about dogs or training dogs, but I'm sure I've read on here that the whole pack thing isn't right.
Dp got all huffy and insisted on watching 3 episodes in a row and then telling me I was wrong because his methods work.
I'm just wondering why they seem to work ie there was one where the dog was really aggressive with the other two dogs in the house, Cesar 'showed them their place' and then by the end all 3 dogs were best friends.
I thought he looked a bit of an idiot challenging the dog, but why did it work?

I am getting it.

Will this work with reactive dogs?

My Rommie is still going nutso almost every time she sees another dog.
She doesn't do it with dogs she has already been introduced to.
But I can't expect every dog owner to indulge me and let her say hello to their dogs.

She is so loud.

(she isn't being aggressive.)

It's also rehearsal the other way - the more the dog gets a reward for doing what you ask, the more it will do what you ask in general.

Plus, you become god of nice things...lol

With most dogs being on or off furniture will make no difference to behaviour, some dogs just need more structure and the furniture thing isn't about - I am pack leader, therefore I get the best places, it's just they're mine and you have to behave to get stuff you want.

A bit like making children do homework before they get to watch TV.

Its really interesting. Thank you.
That was the only bit about the pack thing that I was not sure about.

'Will this work with reactive dogs?'

That's more complicated...ideally you want to do things like have her at a distance she's comfortable with and reward her for not reacting and do things to distract her, then work on making that distance shorter.

But a behaviourist could do you a plan for that.

Can i just say a big thank you to those of you who have been interested and willing to look at things from a new perspective.

As a vet it is a constant source of frustration that the convenient but dangerous idea of dominance is still so widely accepted. If dogs were a less forgiving species we'd have been forced to examine the dominance model much sooner, but they allow us so much more than we deserve. Every week I'll see children allowed to mistreat dogs, owners admonishing their dogs for growing while I perform frightening or painful procedure, and dogs with choke chains and anti bark collars. It's so important that we all understand more about dogs, for their welfare and for our safety. I'm always cheered when I talk to people who are willing to have their eyes opened :)

*growling, not growing

I was a veterinary nurse years ago and all this stuff was taught to us as gospel.
Choke chains were the norm too.

Yanking a dog to a stop was the preferred form of lead training.
Shrieking SIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTT and raising our hand was normal.

I shudder when I think of it. Unfortunately there are still trainers out there who preach this stuff.

Its incredible when you think how hard it is to get through that being kind and gentle is going to work better.

I am an experienced dog owner but I have so much to learn.

I think a big part of the problem is the human need to "do something". So if our dog behaves inappropriately, especially in public, often the prime motivator for our response is demonstrating to others and ourselves that we are dealing with it rather than actually doing what works.

So if a dog growls at us and we shout "No" at it and physically remove it from the sofa we have "dealt with it". It's hard to get people to accept that leaving the dog there for a minute, finding you clicker and treats and asking the dog nicely to move can possibly be the right thing might be better in the long run.

Thanks, Affa and Tabulah-
I'm thinking more that we see it as more of a parental thing then really- she's part of our family and it's a bit like having another child, who has different communication needs (aswell as obviously not being a child!)
I just watched the YouTube clip suggested above and was horrified. I mean, I am a novice owner but ffs! That dog was, as already mentioned, giving out every signal- and what? He chooses to beat her into submission?
I'm quite stunned.

Oh it's hard dealing with a dog behaving anti-socially around other people...

You get lots of dirty looks or bad advice.

My dog is reactive because he's got health issues that cause pain, he's actually finally slowly improving, but it's relative and it's only baby steps.

I either get glared at by people who haven't kept their dogs far enough away (he's on lead, muzzled and I move away) or who have dogs that have barked and growled at him first (because that sets him off) only he reacts more spectacularly and he's a Rottweiler, so of course he's a devil dog anyway.

Or I get told that a shock collar would sort him out...because you know, more pain is bound to be helpful

So yes, the temptation to be seen to be doing something must be quite hard...luckily I've got the hide of a Rhino, lol

It is interesting to watch my DC around animals.
He has ASD and just cannot read the signals. Not at all.

I know not all people with ASD are like this but DS is.

We obviously manage the situation carefully and he is not nasty to the dogs and the dogs are really good (and very small).

But as someone who has worked with animals and taken an interest in their behaviour for many years it fascinates me that he has no instinct and everything has to be taught.

This thread has come at a perfect time for me , we're collecting a new puppy tomorrow ..squeee!!!!!!!

Have dowloaded Sophia Yin's puppy training book...still waiting for the dog crate I have ordered online..pray it arrives tomorrow!

I just got sent this

One of our dogs is fine on the bed but is banned from the couch because he gets growly. It's easy to see it as dominance. DH says things like 'he is getting above himself' when he does this.

But I see it more as a space thing. He is guarding his space (which was always the same bit of the sofa). But it is a shared space which becomes problematic. It isn't the same with the bed because he's only on there occasionally so he doesn't get the chance to see it as his own space which needs to be guarded.

And maybe it does help generally with behaviour because he is not stressed by having to guard his space on the sofa, or seeing anyone as a threat to his space. Maybe he is a happier,calmer dog if he has his own space in the corner of the room where no-one will intrude.