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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Friend reporting concerns with my dog, wants me to see her 'expert'

46 replies

Armadale · 26/05/2014 11:59

My dog is about 5yrs old, we have had him a year and a half.

I am pregnant.

The lady who we got the dog from came round yesterday to tell us she thought we needed to see her friend who is a behaviourist as our dog is not going to be safe around a baby.

She said that our dog's problems are due to us not being firm with him and so he thinks he is the dominant member of the household, which has caused all sorts of problems in his behaviour. We are being arrogant in not seeing that our behaviour needs to change and putting a baby at unnecessary risk.

To say we were horrified is an understatement.

There is a huge back story & I don't want to drip feed, so sorry this might be long: this lady rescues stray street dogs from Eastern Europe and places them in local homes. We agreed to have a dog for her -he had been a homeless stray but we were told he was great with people and other dogs except could be uneasy around small terrier types.

In reality he is frightened of anyone he doesn't know, and is aggressive with ALL other dogs unless he is introduced to them very gradually. (We have got to know a few other owners of these dogs and they all have similar problems- but the lady is slightly in denial about this.)

The way we handle to dog currently is that he is walked, always on lead, around the streets rather than the local fields, as this avoids the risk of off lead dogs bounding up to him, which will result in him at first growling but would progress to snapping and then biting if we didn't extricate him.

I ask strangers not to touch him which avoids any problem with people, as it is only being touched that seems to scare him.

Of course it would be nice if we had the kind of dog we could play in the park with and sit at our feet in beer pub gardens, but he isn't. We have taken him to two different dog training classes, but the amount of dogs and people was clearly beyond him, he made no progress but got more wound up each time, so we have just accepted him as he is and just make sure he isn't a risk.

Twice he has snapped at people in our house- both family members who had come to visit. Both had a sort of 'all dogs love me attitude' so repeatedly tried to stroke him when he had moved away from them several times, until backed by them into a corner or doorway, when he air snapped at them.

To be honest, I took this as a good sign, the dog was obviously distressed, had tried to get away and still didn't actually bite but just warn them. He has never otherwise been aggressive to a human.

If my niece (3 yrs old) visits he is supervised closely and she is not allowed to touch the dog, and after a few minutes the dog generally takes himself off to the bedroom for a nap after a bit as she is a bit loud when running about playing.

Obviously the dog would not be allowed any unsupervised contact with our baby, as basic common sense, but other than this we didn't feel he was a particular risk over and above the obvious fact that dogs are animals not people, can not be expected to react as people and should never be put to the test.

But her visit has worried us and made us question ourselves and whether we are being naive.

DH thinks the lady has just panicked when she found out I was pregnant as she knows on some level that these dogs are not really right, and she is also in thrall to this new friend, (the behaviourist), who specialises in 'training owners to be true pack leaders' as this sort of idea does reinforce her thinking that all her dogs are lovely and their difficulties are the fault of the owners.

My temptation is to either to agree with DH and ignore her, or maybe get someone in to help other than her friend who sounds as bonkers as her

Apparently some of the things we are doing wrong include letting the dog sit on the sofa, feeding it at 7pm in the evening whether my husband is home from work or not, and stroking it in the house, as in dog packs it is only the dominant dog who is groomed in the den(!)

Frankly this just sounds like rubbish to me I'm not sure someone who believes this stuff is necessarily the way to go if we do need someone.

Any advice gratefully received. If anyone had a personal experience of a proper behaviourist that would be particularly useful, we are in South London.

OP posts:
Lilcamper · 26/05/2014 17:18

This explains it a bit better.

tabulahrasa · 26/05/2014 17:23

Raskova - there's a difference between being dominant and being in charge...

I'm in charge of my dog but, he does what he's asked because I'm mum/ the person with food and toys and other things he likes and it's in his interests to do what I ask, not because I've done something that's convinced him I'm higher in a mythical dog pack than he is.

He's also a rottie and not allowed on the couch, but it's because he's too big and attempts to actually sit on your knee if you let him up - it doesn't make him magically more obedient with anything else.

Raskova · 26/05/2014 17:32

Tabulah, my dog sits on my knee like a cat or lies next to me hogging. I love it. He gives the best cuddles.

And yes, that must be what it is. In charge of.

Raskova · 26/05/2014 17:33

With my dog setting rules at one place does make him more obedient elsewhere.

tabulahrasa · 26/05/2014 18:11

Having a clear consistent set of rules does make a difference to where and when dogs will do what you ask...but if you're at the point where there are already behavioural issues, getting them off the sofa won't resolve them is what I mean.

Yep, he tries to sit on my knee like a cat...I like breathing and being able to move my legs, so he's not allowed to, lol.

Mine has some pretty serious behavioural issues caused by pain, he's reactive to strange dogs and sometimes people, he's not allowed on the couch, I use feeding as a handy wait of cementing his wait command and release, I don't let him rush out of doors before me because it's just annoying...none of that stops him worrying that dogs are going to hurt him and stop reacting to them.

Having a set of rules because they suit you is fine, having rules just for the sake of trying to establish yourself as boss is basically a waste of time is really the point.

Raskova · 26/05/2014 18:21

Agree with all that tabulah. I only have rules where needed or wanted.

Armadale · 26/05/2014 18:49

Lilcamper, thanks for the screenshot, there is a lot there, I'm working my way through the links.

I found the written article about why dominance has not disappeared really useful. (and am secretly tempted to send the youtube clip to the lady from yesterday because he even mentions the fallacy of feeding dogs before humans in it, which was one of her big points yesterday!)

I do think with my dog it is a fear thing rather than a being naughty thing- he can behave perfectly on a walk, for example, but the second a dog comes bounding up to him he just goes into another zone, the fact that I am on the end of his lead is irrelevant to him, I don't even think at that moment he knows I am there, in his own little head he is now in survival mode.

OP posts:
Daisybelleblue · 26/05/2014 18:50

Highly recommend Robert Alleyne if you need a second opinion you will find contact details via his website

Lilcamper · 26/05/2014 19:32

That's exactly what it is Armadale, it's fear and survival.

muttynutty · 26/05/2014 19:41

Kris Glover is based in Berks but does cover London. I can not recommend her highly enough. She will sort out any problem you have. She is not only a very highly trained dog professional but also great with humans and can explain why and how to do what she suggests.

website here for Kris and her team

You are getting one of the best in the UK if you go to Kris (and no I do not work for her!)

SpicyPear · 26/05/2014 20:06

Funnily enough Kris would be my top recommendation mutty, but I think the OP would be looking at a sizeable mileage charge on top of the usual fees to see her so was going to see if there was a closer option.

Lilcamper · 26/05/2014 20:29

Kris is awesome! I can ask on a referral site if the OP wants?

muttynutty · 26/05/2014 20:43

But the advice from Kris would be spot on and would actually save the OP money and time in the long run. Smile

I guess the travel costs would only be about £20.00 extra so worth it for the top of the range advice.

OP do check your insurance as Kris is qualified you may be able to claim for the visit

Imsosorryalan · 26/05/2014 20:45

Op, I could have written your exact post. We have had our Romanian rescue two years now. She came to us from a Romanian rescue and we were told she was friendly etc. I made doubly sure as we already have two young children.
Sadly, we have come to the end of our epic journey with her and are rehoming her.
Her issues are very very similar to yours. Fear aggressive with new people and visitors to the house, very scared of all dogs and is just a nervous character. Poor thing. We have been to puppy training and had several apdt behaviourists visit. She is very nervous of our children and sadly this has got worse as the kids have got older. ( I must add, my dds are very careful and gentle with her all the time).
Luckily she is crate trained as this has been our saviour in our open plan house. The final straw came when she turned and snapped at my dds hand just as she stroked her. ( this was after quite a few other snapping incidents) we realised that she would be much happier in a house with no children and this is what we have found for her.
I would ask you to consider the long term. Your dog may be ok with a baby but what happens when the baby is on the move, pulling at the dog etc. with the best will in the world, you can't watch them all the time. ( I know as I have had to, and it's a big hassle planning where to put the dog away from the kids, when all I want is a quick wee!)
Also, we have found it hard with my dds visiting friends, guests or play dates after school. Constantly having to separate the dog from them. I realised we weren't being fair to the dog and in the end, the warning signs were all there. I hate myself for giving her up and it's really the hardest thing I have done. We have a very close bond but I really do think she and I will be much happier.

I hope you make the right decision and even though the rescue lady sounds batty, I'm not sure that these type of rescue dogs are suited to ' family' life.

Lilcamper · 26/05/2014 21:53

It's worth bearing in mind that these dogs were feral. They had no experience of living in family homes.

Armadale · 26/05/2014 23:22

Thanks everyone, I will wait to hear back from SpicyPear about possible nearer options before I decide anything.

I'msosorry, Thanks for you, it sounds like you really love that dog and did everything. The thought of playdates etc is just terrifying. We have plans early next year to move to a rural farm and so we are hoping that may well take away some of that difficulty as the dog would probably be out with DH in the day and less in the house.

Can I ask you, did the behaviourists not help at all or just not help enough iyswim? Were there things they recommended that have been helpful that you could pass on?

I do agree that these dogs are not necessarily suited to domestic life.

The lady who rehomes them has a great love for these dogs and I do think it possibly blinds her to the difficulties they present- and of course when you meet her you are getting her version of how the dogs settle in, and how well they adapt.

This turns out to be not our experience. But of course by the time we realised this the dog was here, we were very attached and feel a responsibility to make it work.

Considering we didn't get him till he was 3 1/2 and he had lived on the street until then, in many ways he does very, very well. In the home with DH and I he is beautifully behaved and doesn't give us any cause for concern at all. Even if he never improves with other dogs outside it will not be a deal breaker for us as we do have strategies to avoid problems, it is his safety in the house with a little one we need to assure ourselves about.

OP posts:
bronya · 26/05/2014 23:26

In your situation I would get a (good) behaviourist in, because your particular dog has a very unsettled past. His fear/anxiety will be much greater and less predictable around a baby, than that of most dogs.

Imsosorryalan · 27/05/2014 13:54

Armadale, the behaviourists did help but at the time it was more to do with helping her settle in. Eg. Making sure guests were sitting down and still before we let her come in to say hello. And then to just ignore her, even if she came to sniff them. That did help with new visitors.

Crate training was another one which has helped immensely, I even cover the crate with a blanket so she feels safe if we need to.

The snapping advice hasn't really worked as our behaviourist was keen to involve my dds more with regards to feeding, training and giving treats. We were already doing this. I think it was the unpredictability of them that frightened her. Also, she's not very tolerant and seems to have a short fuse. I'm not suggesting she should put up with all sorts but someone only has to bump into her slightly and she snaps. I even have to brush her with a soft brush ( not great as she is long haired) as if I pull at her fur, I risk a growl and a snap.

I'd also add that these dogs will have also come from a long line of strays so are very much 'wild' and I think this makes a big difference.

Armadale · 28/05/2014 19:46

Thanks Imsosorry.

The crate training point is interesting, ours seems to wander down the corridor to our bedroom when things are a bit noisy for him, so maybe this is his equivalent, I'm not sure about an actual crate as he was in one for the journey over and was very distressed when we picked him up at Heathrow- it took DH about 3 months to get him used to the car afterwards without shaking and weeing as he is a bit frightened of being confined.

I'll definitely as the behaviourist about this & if there is a way we can make him a hidey hole where he feels safest that doesn't trigger that.

Gosh the grooming thing sounds like a nightmare, ours has never snapped at me or DH and to be honest, I don't think I could cope with that at all, it must have been very difficult.

I'm having a bit of a wobble tonight. The rescue lady came round to have another go, and eventually to shut her up, I told her that we had decided to get help in but to go in another direction rather than her friend because we didn't want help based on dominance theories.

This triggered a rather long tirade about our naivety, as apparently the reason behaviourists don't believe in dominance is that they have no experience with street dogs, who do live in packs, and do behave like a pack.

She told me that every single behaviourist she had met who didn't believe in dominance has been absolutely useless with street dogs and has been let go. She said my dog has one problem only which is that we let it think it is the Alpha Male and no amount of training will stop his behaviour until we are prepared to grow a backbone and put him in his place.

I stuck to my guns and said we were going to try something different, but it was pretty unpleasant really.

Possibly the fact that I'm very pregnant didn't help, otherwise I might of let it wash over me a bit more, but it did leave me feeling very upset & I really hope she isn't right. Gulp.

OP posts:
GiraffesAndButterflies · 28/05/2014 20:04

Let me guess, her friend would want paying? I suspect she is trying to make sure you go to her friend and not elsewhere, so that she gets a kickback. She already knows she's given you a dog with a troubled background so she's playing on your fears to get the business for her mate.

If she really cared about your dog & family she'd just be telling you to get qualified help, not trying to persuade you that her friend is the only only person in the whole wide world who can help. Sounds like emotional blackmail to me, I'm Angry on your behalf OP.

affafantoosh · 29/05/2014 12:55

Even wild dogs do not live in packs. Look at Coppinger's research (and refer your pushy rescue woman to it too).

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