An update on Poppy...

[Fifyfomum]

Okay so I posted about three weeks ago about my new dog Poppy who is six months old.

Well we've had a pretty rough few weeks all in all, mostly she has been fine, learning to walk on the lead, learning to behave in the house and she has been jumping up at us when we walk through the door a lot less.

But she doesn't understand that we don't want her to bite us and her 'play bites' are getting more and more aggressive and scary. Yesterday I was out in the garden trying to just get her to sit and wait nicely for a treat and then moving away from her and getting her to come to me and sit nicely for a treat rather than bounding around and she got very excited (as she does) and started jumping up and snapping in my face. I turned my back to her and folded my arms as I have been told to do and she started biting my ankles, she bit my hip and she was jumping up and trying to bite me where ever she could. Obviously just nips or I would be in hospital but it was SO scary and I couldn't control her at all, she was running around the garden at a rate of knots, barking and then jumping up and biting me :( I was, frankly terrified and quickly got inside the house and left her outside.

Then I took her to the vet, who couldn't even get a microchip in her or even stroke her head after 10 mins of trying to pet her. They brought her back through and said that they could pin her down and do it but she would be ruined for the vet and that if she got really sick she would be untreatable which would be awful. They recommended I got her a muzzle, put it on sometimes at home and brought her down to the vet just to sit in the waiting room and get a treat etc, so she didnt associate the vet with bad stuff.

They didnt charge me for my visit, said if I keep the dog I need to get a behaviourist because Poppy has deep seated abuse issues (she was fearful of the vet not aggressive) and will cost me a fortune in behaviourist treatment. Obviously this is quite worrying for us with two small children (not that she's been odd with them, shes very patient with them)

Anyway so yesterday after lots of upset and trying to find out if it would be better for us to rehome her with someone who knew what they were doing a bit more, or to find someone who could come and work with us, we spoke to a lady near to us who said she could foster the dog if necessary and would be on the end of a phone if we needed her, she is a dog trainer and I asked her what to do in a variety of situations and she let me know which was really good.

Then I got contacted by a charity called BLIZE who are a rescue and support charity specialising in Husky's and they said they try to help as much as possible to keep the dogs inside a home and then will find them new homes if needed. Which is amazing so they are coming to visit us in the next few days and are on the end of a phone if I need to talk to them.

Its been incredibly upsetting and sometimes very scary for us but I am hopeful that with the right support we can help Poppy regain that trust that she has lost from her abuse and also understand how to be a good doggy and live in the world without scaring humans or needing to resort to biting to 'play'

Its important that she knows she is not as important as the children, when shes established that, she can come up on the sofa.

she already seems calmer to be fair. also stuff like only feeding her once a day and not having food down all the time, I didn't even think of that! Saying 'enough' low and firm when she is misbehaving.

Floral - don't waste your time, really don't.

OP - do you honestly think that your dog, or any dog, has the capacity to consider it wants to be 'higher' than you? They don't, really they don't.

Dogs are domestic animals, they don't have any need to behave as a pack, even dogs who live 'wild', don't work in a pack. They form groups, who are fluid in movement, and will interchange regularly.

Wolves don't even work as a pack. Generally, they remain as a family structure, and work as a team for the benefit of the continuation of said family i.e genetics.

Please give me a detailed explanation as to why not letting your dog on to sofa will ensure that she understands that she is lower than you in the family structure. Please back it up with scientific research to show this works.

I would be really pleased if you could. I will then stop spending time and money studying canine behaviour and training.

Even if you don't do this, just google the reasons why Pets at Home have withdrawn the Cesar Milan books from their shelves, it might help.

need I'm not going to , I read the other thread when the dog was first obtained. I'd better go now anyway ,the dog has turned the other way so I'd better see what he's plotting !

Pack theory training is at best ineffective and pointless at worst downright dangerous, for the owner and the pup.

Not letting your dog will teach it nothing apart from that it is not allowed on the sofa.

My dogs sleep on our bed since we were broken into while we were home, the only way in which it has changed their behaviour is that when we start doing the bedtime routine they run to the bedroom door and not their own beds.

for now and get some real help from an APBC registered trainer

World domination for sure. Get him off the sofa, that will stop him

I am off too, to study canine behaviour strangely!!

Oh and dogs don't speak english, unless you teach her what "enough" means, that is also pointless. Tone of voice and body language they understand, but you could say "carry on" in a firm, low voice and it will still frighten her into stopping what she is doing. I prefer to ignore the bad and reward the good or if the bad is really annoying, dangerous or destructive I'll give a command they know which will automatically stop the bad eg "sit" if they are sitting, they cannot also be jumping up at guests, they are then rewarded for sitting.

A 6 month old pup is still growing and needs feeding two or three times a day.

"Top of the pack" /facepalm

OP
Lots of the advice your dog lady gave you is sound. Simple commands, being calm etc will work. None of this is because your dog thinks you're also a dog, or that you are part of a pack, or that it's dominant over you. It's because dogs learn by association, and they learn more effectively when they are calmer and less highly aroused.

I'm also going to go against the grain here and advise against raw food. I'll give you my credentials and you can consider my advice in context. I'm a vet with an interest in behaviour and I feed raw. I also own a highly-strung dog.

High levels of protein in the diet mean high levels of amino acids competing for uptake into the brain with serotonin precursors. So raw fed dogs tend to have lower serotonin levels than those fed commercial food. This can sharpen up older dogs, give vigour to lethargic dogs and basically perk them up. But in dogs with problematic behaviours, it isn't desirable to increase their edginess. Higher levels of serotonin are correlated with calm behaviour so provided you don't give her crap like Bakers a commercial carbohydrate rich food may be a better option. From what you've described of her behaviour I'd avoid raw feeding entirely until the behaviour is well under control and that is a long way off. My own dog is so much more anxious and reactive since I started him on raw that I'm considering reverting to commercial food for his psychological well-being.

I have no intention of phoning the lovely lady that took the time to come to my home and advise me that she is wrong. I am getting good real life support and advice and I intend to follow it. Whether she is 'right' or 'wrong' according to Mumsnet, I have a much calmer dog and household already, I can see a reality where I get to keep my beautiful new friend for all her life. I don't intend on swaying from her advice. Thank you so much for all caring, it is because of the care and support on the last thread that I started this one to show how we are all getting on, I don't plan on being rude to anyone and I don't see why anyone would want to be rude to me. It is what it is, we are all happy and feeling supported which is so great.

It is not "according to Mumsnet". It is according to the RSPCA, Dogs Trust and many very important uk and international dog welfare organisations. See below. This is vital for your dog's welfare and for the safety of your children. You need a qualified professional.

www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/supporting-organisations.php

cashewfrenzy you have made some very bold statements re raw feeding and serotonin levels and behaviour - can you link me to research papers to back this up please.

I have a large number that state the complete opposite.

She is a qualified professional :)

I have no intention to divert from the advice she has given me, nothing she has recommended would scare the dog or upset her, just help her gently see what behaviour is acceptable and what is not.

She was a great help and will continue to be a great help. Speaking of the Raw diet, she did mention that raw diets must be tailored to the breed(s) of dog and the role it has, working/non-working or old or young. So she is helping me discover all that and learn what is best for my pup right now.

The biggest issue I have at the moment is that she doesn't seem to eat very much at all. Its very strange, she is obviously healthy and has grown since we got her but she wont eat :(

She ate the turkey mince yesterday but today doesnt seem to be having any of it. Very very strange

Does she have access to your laptop? Perhaps she's read this thread?

Shes actually just eaten a little bit but not as much as I would like. Not that any of you seem to actually care, seems being rude is on the menu and that is all that will be happening. I'll unfollow this now and find somewhere supportive. I just thought folk might want to know/care how Poppy was getting on after the last thread. I apologise for being So wrong.

I am only sticking my beak back in here with regard to raw because I have already nailed my colours to the mast re pack theory being outdated bollocks.

Cashew am I understanding that you are saying that a high protein diet is not advised for dogs with behavioural problems? I apologise completely if I have got it the wrong way round. But if I haven't I am at a loss as to why with a medical background and a declared interest in nutrition you are confusing meat and protein level. The raw complete I use is around 16% protein where as carb loaden Bakers is over 20% protein? Even a good quality dry like Burns is higher at 18% protein. Raw feeding involves balancing bone etc but even pure chicken breast in only around 30% protein. There is a lot a water in raw for starters

I apologise completely if I am being a bit dumb and you are saying that is is low protein that is the problem.

nutty I came upon this information in an APBC webinar back in February. The speaker was Dr Rebecca Ledger, a clinical ethologist and APBC member working in Vancouver, where there are high rates of raw feeding. Unfortunately I have lost my notes from the presentation so I can't lay my hands on a reference list for you, sorry :(

An interesting PDF written by Rebecca is linked to below - although it is aimed at the layman it includes some references. She did work for Waltham in the past, but to my knowledge has no conflict of interest now, and her presentation was quite compelling (admittedly more so because I had already started to notice the effects she was describing in my own dog, who had been raw fed for around 6 weeks at that stage).

www.animalsheltering.org/resources/magazine/nov-dec-2012/better-behavior-through-food.pdf

Fify you've either ignored or dismissed all of the advice people, including myself, have taken time to give you. I am sorry if you think that people have been rude, but I think you have been quite rude too. There are some very knowledgeable, experienced posters on this thread, giving you free help, and you have poo-pooed it all.

Cashewfrenzy - raw feeding (raw meaty bones with small amounts of offal) isn't a high protein diet.

fan I am not highly knowledgeable about nutrition, absolutely not my area! However, many raw diets will include protein levels in excess of 30% (as will many premium dog foods). It is this higher level of protein which is postulated to result in higher blood levels of amino acids and therefore greater competition with 5-HTP for uptake across the blood-brain barrier, leading to reduced serotonin synthesis.

It is always also important to remember (from my perspective when talking to clients, anyway) that many raw feeders are not feeding their dogs correctly. I am very much aware that lots and lots of people are very clued up and informed, but I also talk to a lot of clients who "feed raw" inappropriately (a flurry of this came after that dog food programme on Ch 5 :( )

I totally agree on that score Cashew entirely which is why I was trying to encourage the OP to do this properly rather than joining the many ranks of people who are seeing the rise of raw and throwing a ton of bones at their dogs and thinking that is it.

Raw is a fabulous thing done properly and has changed my dogs life (Suspect he has CECS) but his dreadful gastric problems have been brought well under control with raw.

I am.passionate about raw being done properly but equally passionate about some of the myths that are perpetuated that it has to be time consuming, expensive, you need a chest freezer and its high protein. It doesn't have to be any of these.

But I agree, knowledge is the key...half assed is dangerous. Raw feeding Uk is very helpful.

I mainly use Nutriment btw, just in case you fancy looking at a lower protein raw for your dog...they include a full analysis of their foods and they are all under 18% iirc Fantastic customer service too although at the pricier end of the scale.

Oh yes, I now always gently delve into it when clients mention raw feeding - I have had dogs being fed pure turkey or beef mince, dogs being fed kibble mixed with chicken wings or something , and the most common is introduction of RMB or minces but no offal, or some offal but no liver. Sadly thanks to this widely-held notion (thank you Ann Ridyard) that, as well as being ignorant buffoons, vets are "anti-raw" I am sure lots of clients hide it from me, so the opportunity to give guidance is not always available. I would love to see some more raw feeders saying things like "vets receive little training in nutrition but may be willing to discuss diet with you - why not ask them" or something. Having said that I have actually suggested raw to some clients in the past and they have been totally aghast and horrified. You can't win

I'll bear that in mind fan, thanks. I swapped him to raw because he gets colitis constantly (and a touch of pancreatitis I suspect) but raw hasn't helped at all. In fact he is possibly a bit worse, I wonder if that's because stress brings it on and he's now very on edge all the time and hence more stressed ... :/

I think also, just a final point re diet/behaviour, protein aside it is important not to overlook the benefits carbs and fibre can bring to a stressed dog. Satiety and altered brain chemistry may only be small factors but I think they shouldn't be overlooked if you have a really tough behaviour case with any component of anxiety.