Where the Wild Things Are

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

I have an eight month old Border Collie called Meg. She is far from perfect (and so am I).
Today she has been about 60/40 good. The 40 included chewing up my camera memory card which DH is sure he put safely on the mantelpiece. Every time I look down at this screen she takes a quick munch of the coffee table with her eyes on mine. This despite a 2 hour walk which included much in and out of streams.

Yes Moose - had a broken ankle but recovered now although tend to be really cautious when walking anywhere remotely slippy (I would have panicked on Basildon's walk!!) . Angus' main issue is being distracted by other dogs. He just can't leave them alone and his focus immediately shifts from us to them. Probably stems from him being at doggy daycare so much earlier on when I had my broken ankle. My dogwalker is good - she does do some training with him and loves him to bits - but main focus is playing so while I have a really well socialised pup he is still not reliable when off lead.

basil I can see how that would be funny ... in restrospect, but .

Fantastic news about your ds2 being discharged from the clinic - one of those milestone moments many people on the many boards wouldn't get, but I'm sure there are a few of us on here who appreciate how massive it is as an achievement.

needa, I watched this video yesterday that might help with Harry's blip. It was about someone working with a Working Cocker that just wanted to explore and run around outside and this making it hard to get them to check in and stay under constant supervision. They used a long-line and functional rewards (she refers to the premack principle, but it's basically the same thing ie the dog is more likely to voluntarily do something it wouldn't ordinarily choose to do, if it is rewarded by being allowed to do something it would choose almost every time if given the freedom). The outdoor, functional reward thing starts about 3.40 minutes, but the whole video is her working with the same dog and quite interesting.

So glad your ankle is better haggis, I know from experience that ankle healing is one of those things that doesn't always go smoothly so good to hear yours is ok.

Pip prefers to avoid other dogs, given the choice, so no danger of him running off to say hi to every dog in the park. Lurcherboy on the other hand has taken to bouncing around with joy on the end of the lead, like a puppy, every time he sees another dog ... he's nearly 9!

Great news Basil. Such an achievement to be signed off for the right reasons.

Oh I should tell you all that I'm going on a Dogs for the Disabled PAWS workshop next month. Toby doesn't get to go, just as well as he's a little delinquent, but there will be assistance dogs there to show you how a dog can help your autistic child. Not that ds4 is remotely interested in him, but Toby shadows him especially when he is outside. DS4 has just started riding lessons. Amazing to see the connection he has with horses.

I used to volunteer for RDA when I was a young teenager Sally. I was always amazed at how being around the horses calmed the children that came to our group. I think, despite being naturally flighty by nature, horses have something very calm and centred about them that appeals to some children, particularly those with sensory difficulties.

Let us know how the PAWS workshop goes. I don't think it would be any help for us with ds1, but I'd love to hear what they have to say.

Do you think that Toby's naughty behaviour could be linked to not being castrated? He's just tried snatching a cupcake wrapper out of ds3's hand and also disgraced himself in the park by running after a family with a young child. Should we be thinking of getting him done? He's constantly raiding bins and destroying stuff. Toys, paper, tissues. I feed him twice a day on a cooked meat, carb and veg diet. A pound of food per meal. He gets walked twice a day, he's played with loads and happily stays in his crate when we go out. Opinions??

Am no expert but I would think it's more his age although saying that we've just had Finn done but not because of his behaviour. He does steal food now but i think that's because he's grown enough to reach the work surfaces.
Is the food your using a commercial brand or homemade? Just thinking of colourings and additives etc. The raw diet we feed Finn is supposed to make them calmer but as we've never fed him anything else I can't say what he'd be without it. The vet is always commenting on how calm he is especially for a border collie though so there may be something in it.

I doubt it's testosterone driven - far more likely to be testing his boundaries. So while it will be related to an increase in testosterone, it isn't that the testosterone is causing the behaviours, iyswim, it's more that he's growing, developing, trying to find his place and work out what his boundaries are.

It's difficult to say diet wise, as I don't know how you'd go about working out the protein level on a home-cooked die. Hyperactive/destructive behaviour can be linked to too much protein, although that would be unusual if the protein source is from a high quality meat source.

He's most likely just being a bit of a teenage arse. Neutering is unlikely to change that, but ultimately it's up to you when/if to get him done.

tbh I suspect he's being a fairly typical teenage lab ... our first lab when I was a child was so totally food-obsessed that she'd have done everything Toby's doing (and I'm afraid it didn't stop when she matured ...)

Fitz is exceptionally calm for a 9 month old puppy but he's not fed a raw diet so I think being calm may have a lot more to do with innate temperament than diet

We had Fitz neutered a few weeks ago but not because of general behaviour - it was v specific - lots of humping and he was becoming a target for other male dogs - the humping has stopped and he's no longer got a big sign over his head saying 'come and beat me up' but otherwise his character and behaviour hasn't changed at all

Yay you are both right. He's getting so big. He's roughly 28 kilos. And tall! The food that I cook is beef, lamb or pork mince, potatoes and mixed veg (beans, peas, carrots and corn). I suspect that he's being a delinquent, and we will have to be very strict with him. Funny though today, I'm watering plants out the front and he sees a man walking down the street. I told him to sit and he did and didn't move until the man had gone passed. FFwd to tonight and he's suddenly deaf to the word come!

Ah - selective deafness. Aren't teenagers great! I'm loving the whole premack/functional reward idea at the moment (as per video I linked to upthread early today). Focussing on lots of sits, downs and waits and rewarding with whatever it is they love doing most - which in Pip's case is either running or playing tuggy with one of his soft toys. It teaches both self-control and learning to do the things they don't like so much in order to get what they do like as the reward. Research has found it's a really strong motivator and I think it's perfect for stroppy teens.

Toby weighs more than Pip now. Pip is about 27.5" to the shoulder and weighs 24.75 kilos these days.

def boundary-pushing so be firm but fair!!

can I pick your collective brains about Fitz's diet please

when we first got him he was eating raw mince and wainwrights kibble - being vegetarian for 30+ years I really didn't fancy feeding him raw meat and he point blank refused to touch the wainwrights stuff - we got a puppy pack from the vet which included a sample of hills puppy food which he wolfed down and has been happily eating ever since

At the moment he has kibble for breakfast, a kong usually stuffed with something like cooked chicken, kibble and natural yoghurt at some point during the day and tea is a sachet of james wellbeloved puppy food with a handful of kibble on top. Training treats are kibble, little bits of chicken, cheese, hot dog etc. A couple of times a week I give him a little tin of sardines in tomato sauce for his coat

He seems v healthy, his poos are easy to pick up but when I was looking at the hills ingredients the other day felt rather uneasy at the lack of meat and amount of crud!

Do you think I should change him over to something more natural or should I work on the principle of if it's not broke don't fix it? I'm not going to feed raw, both on grounds of freezer space and squeamishness

With you on the raw! I suppose at some point you're going to have to stop feeding him puppy food? I went for a home cooked diet because when Toby was small he really struggled with the trots on manufactured food. We started on cooked food and his poo is well formed etc. I hated mucking about with his diet when he was little, and now that he's happy with my cooking I'm not proposing to change.

basil, I think it's entirely up to you. I'm also veggie and do struggle with raw. I fed all mine raw for years when we had the facilities to do so, but dh did most of the meat/bone handling and went to the butchers. We don't have anywhere for a chest freezer here and there are no friendly butchers either, so with two large dogs, raw isn't really an option.

Until recently ,ine were both on Canagan, which fantastic quality, but is very expensive (about £60 a bag every 3 weeks). Dh and I decided we needed to pull our belts in a little, so I did some research and put them onto Skinners Field and Trial Salmon and Rice. I wasn't at all happy about it, despite it being much better than most feeds of a similar price, the fact that it gets great reviews everywhere and is used by lots of breeders and competitors in both show and activities, but if anything, I'd say my two are doing better on it. Both had occasional cases of the runs on Canagan, but have been fine on the Skinners. They've been on it for about a month and a half now and both are looking great and doing easy to pick up poo etc. It's saving us over £600.00 a year on dog food too, which is good, as with Pip's tendencies we could easily spend that in vet fees for his frequent accidents.

Given the choice - and if we had the same facilities and supplier that we had when we lived in Lancs (we used to get a free bin-bag full of bones and offcuts from a local butcher every couple of weeks and would buy our muscle meat and offal from them in return, at a great price) - I would still feed raw every time, but for now I'll stick with the Skinners. I wouldn't say I'm exactly happy about it. If I could afford something like Millie's Wolfheart or a cold pressed kibble I would be happier, but I do know the Skinners is a lot better than the sort of muck the vast majority of dogs get off the supermarket shelves every day, so I can just about live with it - for now. (and dh is far less grumpy about it, whereas before he was having a strop every time he had to pick up a bag of food from the pet shop).

Pip's staples are coming out this evening. I'm dreading it. Apparently they use some sort of staple removing device, but surely it's going to hurt? The staples will be healed into the wound won't they? He was so brave when they put them in, but that was really quick. Can't imagine getting them out is going to be as easy.

Moose - the staples didn't hurt Harry, when they were in his foot, but that's the experience of one person/dog Thanks for the link. Harry was great on our walk yesterday, apart from one incident and only a few extra seconds before he appeared out of the rape fields. He was awful for DS later on though and perfect for me again this morning! The rape fields are the issue I think, he adores them and will spend ages in them. We see the movement, but not the dog! He pops back every minute or so, checks we are there, then dives back in. Also worse on our morning route, which I don't vary as I have less time, and I can get onto the fields from my back garden.

I watched the video, we do all the impulse control stuff at the start, but the part in the field is interesting. Will remain positive and keep reinforcing, and move to the long lead if required. He doesn't run off into the distance, more sometimes comes back in his time, not mine!

We use Millie's Wolfheart in the morning (raw in the evening, not 'correct', but works for us) and are very pleased. The smell from the bag is amazing, the ingredients list fab and their Facebook page and website informative.

That's reassuring, thanks needa. Generally Pip squeals and screams when he hurts himself but is quiet as a mouse at the vets and she can do anything with him, so fingers crossed.

I thought the field-work on that video was interesting too. I had thought I was already doing functional rewards, but the way the girl in the video does it seems far more effective and the dog was soooo happy.

I'd love to put mine on Millie's Wolfheart or even better raw. Mixed feeding is fine as long as it's good quality kibble, like you are using and the feeds aren't less than 8 hours apart - preferably 12. Some purists will clutch their pearls at mixed feeding, but I know lots of people that do it very successfully.

Well, my dogs are smaller, and it lasts longer with the raw

The dog in the video looks exactly like Hector, he's just far less 'bouncy'!

I'm wondering about Angus' diet too - he was weaned onto raw chicken and tripe mice - but he didn't really like it and dh was finding it all a bit too complicated when I broke my ankle and he had to do feeds - so switched to Royal Canin puppy (with some wet puppy food mixed in). (reason for Roya Canin- that's what the cats get and he would refuse to eat his raw mince and scoff their dry food instead...)He's doing fine - looks great and poo fine but wondering if he's getting too fat on it. How do you tell with a really hairy dog? Can easily feel his backbone through his coat but not much else. He's 54 lbs (about 24.5 kgs). Treats tend to be dried liver, chicken, occasional sausage.

Food wise you all know I've fed Maz raw 100% for over a year now, but I appreciate it isn't every ones cup of tea. You have got to do what you feel comfortable with. It is easier for me as Maz is small so I manage without an extra freezer as can fit 10kg of Nutriment and have half a drawer left over for bones/wings by using 2 drawers for him and 2 for us. Mixing in bones and wings that lot will last me nearly 2 months ans costs about 45 delivered (though I get my bones at Morrisons).

You can only base your decisions on what works for you.

• cost includes my bone spend though! Nutriment order usually about 36.

gah ... just wrote long reply and it got eaten by my phone

thanks for food suggestions/thoughts - I'm definitely not going to feed raw but will look into Millie's Wolfheart - part of my mulling over his diet is that I know I'm going to have to change him from puppy food very soon anyway as he's almost completely fully grown at 9 months (still only 17kg so not going to be big, even for a Toller)

haggis - Fitz is also ridiculously furry but we can still feel his ribs when we run our hands along his sides - they're not sticking out but definitely there - plus if you look at him from above he's got a definite waist. What does Angus look like when he's wet? Fitz looks ludicrously tiny after a bath as virtually all his bulk is fur and air

I've given myself a birthday present of one of the think dog courses - I'm really looking forward to it

Interestingly just back from the vets (small eye infection for both dogs, nothing exciting) and he weighed my two while we were there. We also discussed weight etc. as both of mine are on the skinny side.

You should be able to feel their ribs and a dog should have a defined waist. As BB says, not visible, but you should be able to feel them. You can tell more clearly when they are wet

Harry is only 15.2kg, and has dropped almost a kilo, breed average is approx. 20-24kgs! He's fit as a fiddle though and well defined, so the vet sees no reason to worry. He eats tons, but does run off lead for over 2 hours a day. Which I think is key, as, when he had the toe injury, he did gain weight, despite us being careful with the diet. I just think he burns it all off.

You can actually see Hector's ribs, but that's quite normal for spaniel puppies too. DH is always banging on that he's too thin, I disagree.

BB - I like the Millie's very much. It's an all stages food, so there's no puppy variety. My two haven't ever had puppy food as their previous kibble was all stages too.

Good news re the course, we can compare notes!

Angus has never been fully wet yet - so not sure what he'll look like. His coat is really, really thick so the thought of bathing him scares me a bit. Might pour a bucket of water over him and see if I can feel his ribs then! He does have a visible waist though.

Dog weight and feeding guide. Best thing to do with a super-fluffy dog is to bathe them and assess them against the chart then.

Bear in mind it varies from breed to breed eg, Pip fits the underweight diagram, but is at the perfect weight for his type.

Dh ended up taking Pip to the vets, as I was caught up helping ds2 with his school project and didn't realise the time, so wasn't ready when he arrived home from work.

Apparently he was good as gold, didn't even squeak and it was all over in seconds. Vet nurse said he was surprised how good he was, as sighthounds are usually huge wusses.

Thank heavens his new raincoat arrived this morning, because it was throwing it down outside when it was time for his appointment and he'd been refusing to even go out for a wee all afternoon!

Glad it went well at the vets moose, let's hope you don't have to take Pip again for at least a few weeks ..

Fitz is completely unfazed by rain - this afternoon he was happily pottering around the garden dismantling soft toys in the pouring rain - the worse the weather gets, the happier he seems to be

Maz is the same basildon...we still went in the wood today. The bad weather made me foolishly drop my guard and he managed to slip me througha gap in the fence onto the school field where someone was walking a retriever. I admit I was less vigilant as usually no one else around up there at the best of times. In fact it is that lonely I don't usually go in week as normally alone...I did it once and flapped when I realised I was at least a mile from civilisation and rang my friend to tell her where to look for a body if I didn't come home. She was not amused, I got told off! I am a wuss! Luckily the retriever was happy to bound around.

And then at the top it was one all as I was more aware and succeeded in my lead ninja routine and we were the ones to get bounced on instead!

Hope Pip manages to stay injury free too.