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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Another castration question and marking!

54 replies

leolion · 26/01/2014 09:01

I'd be grateful for people's views on the following. I have a 2.5 years old male welsh springer. We decided against castration as we had been told that it can make dogs more skittish and nervy. However, we have developed a problem with him marking. He is great in our house, but anywhere else that is indoors, he immediately cocks his leg.

The last straw was yesterday when we decided to take him to my mum's for the first time in months (we'd stppoed because he marked there before). She has a female cocker spaniel. I kept him on his lead and he was under supervision for the whole time.....until I went to the loo and he ran upstairs and cocked his leg on my mum's dry clean only bed spread. We now cannot take him to anybody's house, and our previous dog sitter has refused to have him in her house, which i can understand. Would getting him castrated stop this behaviour, and in your opinion, does castrating have any other effects on behaviours- positive or negative?

Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
curlew · 26/01/2014 13:49

Have you ever heard a dog owner say "Well, he's never done that before!"?

ineedsomeinspiration · 26/01/2014 14:15

Responsible or not matings can still happen. A relative of mine had an entire male who had never really been very male as such.
Anyway long story short bitch from several doors down was in season and got in to thier garden and the mated.

Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 14:26

Couldn't some blame be laid at the door of the unspayed bitch's owner? For not spaying their bitch and not making sure she couldn't escape?

curlew · 26/01/2014 14:28

Absolutely. Bring me the owner of the unspayed bitch and I will take exactly the same tone with her.

ineedsomeinspiration · 26/01/2014 14:35

Yes of course it's mostly the bitches owners fault but it still happened. Thats the point I'm trying to get across. You can be as responsible as you like but no one can say or know it won't happen to me unless thier pet is castrated.
As it happens both dogs have now been neutered as my relative kept the bitch as the owners were a waste of space.
Bitches in heatcare awful and will also do anything to get to your dog.

Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 14:40

^^^what LoneCat said up there....she is a vet. 'Increased nervous behaviour in already nervous dogs.' My dog is staying intact.

My garden is escape proof, my dog's training is ongoing using reward based scientific methods, I know the areas I walk him in, am aware of my surroundings and not engrossed in my mobile phone. I will do everything I can to make sure it doesn't happen and will not compromise my dog's mental well being 'just in case'.

ineedsomeinspiration · 26/01/2014 14:46

Don't get me wrong I'm actually not against keeping your dog entire if it's the right thing to do but I just think you need to be realistic.
No matter how many precautions you put in place your dog has the equipment and unwanted puppies could happen.
OP no guarantees with regards to the marking. I know one 6 year old dog it worked for and one 5 year old it didn't.

leolion · 26/01/2014 15:21

Thanks to those of you who've given some really useful views and experiences. It's certainly helping in my decision making. Have any of you got any ideas as to how I should tackle the marking indoors if I decide not to go ahead with castration?

OP posts:
Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 15:32

Clean up any accidents using either a specialist pet cleaner or diluted bio wash liquid. Make sure he is 'empty' before you take him in anywhere.

moosemama · 26/01/2014 17:02

We have been advised by our vet not to have our pup castrated, for the moment, due to fear related behavioural issues. He is 7 months old, had a very bad start in life, is highly fearful of other dogs and needs more time to become fully socialised.

Having had another large-breed, fear-aggressive rescue many years ago, for whom, at the time, the veterinary advice was to neuter prior to 6 months and who ended up massively worse after the removal of testosterone, I am in full agreement with her.

It is well known and accepted by vets these days that dogs with fear - rather than other forms of behavioural aggression - are frequently made a lot worse by the removal of testosterone from their systems. The fine balance of hormones helps calm them to the extent that they feel the fear, without resorting to aggression to deal with it. Remove the testosterone and you are effectively removing their internal resources to calm themselves and cope without resorting to aggression.

The rescue my boy came from insists on neutering before 6 months, prospective owners have to sign a contract to agree to it or risk having the dog taken back, but in his case they are absolutely in agreement with my vet and have delayed his neuter-by date as a result. They see first hand every single day the results of unplanned, unwanted litters but trust my experience and handling of my dog enough to agree that he shouldn't be neutered - yet.

Incidentially, they also see first hand the result of dogs who suffer from severe fear-aggression - how they end up being locked away indefinitely or worse, discarded, often ending up being pts, as they can't be safely rehomed - and they agree that if we can avoid that by delaying neutering while we work on socialisation and training, then that is definitely the way forward for my particular dog.

My boy is also a large-breed, who still has open growth plates and this is another thing the rescue were willing to consider when deciding whether or not to agree to us delaying neutering.

No situation is black and white, each owner and vet have to weigh up the pros and cons for each individual dog and make their decision based on that. Bashing other owners for informed decisions made after taking professional advice is totally uncalled for.

I am quite sure that we are all dog-lovers here and every single one of us not only wants the best for our own dogs but also for the greater good. Sometimes there has to be some compromise involved. I am quite sure that if one of us who has either delayed or foregone neutering due to fear aggression posted on here to say their dog had bitten through fear, we would also get a bashing for that - sometimes you just can't win.

OP

I would definitely ask about trying chemical castration, as it's temporary, but may give you some idea about whether or not the marking will stop after castration. I suspect not, as the behaviour is very likely to be behavioural by this age, but it may be worth a try to help you with your decision.

If the marking is behavioural Lilcamper's advice on making sure he is empty before you taking somewhere is right. Take him for a long walk where he has lots of opportunities to eliminate just before you take him visiting and also try to keep him occupied and focussed while you are there, rewarding him for good attention. You can work on some attention exercises at home, so that you know you can interrupt and refocus his attention very quickly if he looks like he is sniffing and likely to mark. The more you practice interrupting and rewarding him for his attention the better. Try looking up Kikopup's training videos on YouTube to help you work out how to do this.

I do wonder if you are now tense, expecting him to mark and this might be contributing to the behaviour. If you can retrain him to focus on you and you know you can interrupt or keep his attention, you will feel more relaxed and this may have an knock-on effect.

Is he generally an anxious sort of dog? Just wondering if something like a DAP collar or some rescue remedy might also help to relax him. A fabric travel crate might also be something to think about as well, as he may feel less of a need to mark if he has his own safe-space wherever he goes.

Incidentally, my first ever dog used to do this and she was an adult, spayed GSD bitch. She seemed to be more likely to mark in houses that had other pets, but also liked to leave her mark on super-clean houses that smelled strongly of cleaning products. Blush She was a rescue and gradually stopped doing it as she became more and more secure with us.

Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 18:05

Thank you moosemama, the voice of reason Smile

basildonbond · 26/01/2014 18:17

Gosh lilcamper - liver cake really trumps a bitch in heat? Genuine question btw ..

I'm sounding surprised as dpup is pretty food-oriented but if someone's got a ball or a tugtoy you can wave as much liver/hot dog/roast chicken as you like in front of his face and he'll just ignore it - there's no way I'd count on food tempting him away from anything (he's not met a bitch in heat yet so have no idea what he'd do ...)

Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 18:28

He isn't allowed to just run off and pester random dogs as much as he would love to. I have done a hell of a lot of work with him to get him to focus on me. I tend to walk in places where I can see other dogs from miles away and get him under control and concentrating on me before he has a chance to react. I also make sure we are far enough away from other dogs that he stays under threshold and can still listen to me....we do a lot of trick work at a distance which he adores.

curlew · 26/01/2014 18:31

As I said- if I had a pound for every time I have heard a dog owner say "well, he's never done that before"..... .........

Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 18:53

I also have more than a passing interest in training and behaviour and the science behind it and dog law. But hey, maybe I do need to listen to a random off the internet over qualified professionals Hmm

moosemama · 26/01/2014 19:01

Curlew, attacking a couple of owners who have taken professional advice and chosen not to neuter for behavioural and/or medical reasons is totally overlooking the fact that the majority of unwanted dogs filling our rescue centres are the result of irresponsible backyard breeding and subsequent sale of dogs as disposable objects to people who have neither the knowledge, resources or inclination to take proper care of them.

I am not denying that there may be the occasional situation whereby a well cared for dog escapes to get to a bitch (andyes, dogs are unpredictable and we should never be complacent enough to think we always know what their next move will be) but I refuse to believe that, in the majority of cases, these dogs belong to people who are fundamentally dedicated to the proper care of their dogs. There are far more latch-key dogs, unneutered dogs of both sexes inhabiting one household and dogs being deliberately bred from, in order for their owners to make a few quick bucks. All you need do is take a look at preloved, gumtree and other sites of their ilk to work out where the fundamental basis of the problem lies.

As responsible owners, if the situation ever did arise whereby the worst happened and our dogs did get to a bitch, we would be responsible enough to do something about it, be that paying for hormonal treatment to prevent a pregnancy taking or finding responsible homes for the offspring if that is what the bitch's owner would prefer. There just wouldn't be a situation where our dogs would produce pups that would end up in a rescue centre - it simply wouldn't happen.

You are preaching to the converted. Yes, in the majority of cases, there is usually no reason not to neuter and is a sensible course of action. That is however always the case and both veterinary and behavioural professionals are sensible - and informed - enough to realise this and consider the welfare of the dog when advising their clients.

It's threads like this, where people jump in with both feet, start shouting the odds and refuse to listen to what others have to say, that scared so many people away from The Doghouse in the not too distant past and if we scare people off, we lose the opportunity to support and educate those who are sensible enough to come here asking for the advice and experiences of others.

Please try and have a little respect. Such (ironically) aggressiveand rude responses are totally unnecessary.

bakewelltartandcustard · 26/01/2014 20:20

It is not irresponsible to keep an entire dog, unless you live somewhere where dogs run loose and breed unchecked. Where we live nobody would dream of taking out a bitch in season and it is decades since I saw a dog out alone. If a bitch should get mismated a possible pregnancy is easily stopped.

leolion · 26/01/2014 20:55

Thanks for your posts everybody, especially moose and lilcamper.
I'm showing all the posts to my husband in helping us to make a decision. Curlew- why do you keep posting on here? You're really not being very fair.

OP posts:
Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 20:58

You are more than welcome leo Smile

moosemama · 26/01/2014 21:24

Just re-read my last post and realised I mistyped. It should of course say

"That is not however, always the case and both veterinary and behavioural professionals are sensible - and informed - enough to realise this and consider the welfare of the dog when advising their clients."

My apologies, I am not well this weekend and struggling with wordfinding - and apparently typing.

curlew · 26/01/2014 21:44

I'm not attacking. I'm just expressing my point of view. Which I am entitled to do. I think a and I am not alone- that it it irresponsible to have an unneutered dog, and that no bound can be absolutely sure that there won't be an "incident" resulting in unwanted puppies. Why am I not allowed to say this?

Lilcamper · 26/01/2014 22:07

Say it by all means but don't be so rude towards people that have made an educated decision based on extensive research and on advice from multiple qualified and experienced professionals. You just make yourself look silly.

curlew · 26/01/2014 22:27

Nope. No rudeness. Just an unwillingness to say "whatever you think best"

curlew · 26/01/2014 22:28

Unless suggesting that people join the civilised world is considered rude? Maybe a little.

whereisshe · 26/01/2014 22:48

Our dog was castrated at one year old (he's a small breed so was mature), and he still marks. Less so than he used to pre-snip, but if he's discombobulated in a house with other dogs the sofas are still not entirely safe Angry.