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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Original poster

First time with a behaviourist

52 replies

Santaspelvicfloor · 16/12/2013 14:17

My JRT snapped and bit someone last week. It happened when postman called and I couldn't pick him up (recent surgery) to stop him getting to the door. Friend tried to catch him and he bit them :(

I've booked an appt with behaviourist as his anxiety over the postman and also me leaving causes a snarling fury each time. Otherwise he is the sweetest gentlest lad going.

Behaviourist has suggested food as a reward but he's intolerant of almost all treats (history of pancreatitis) and also not a dog that accepts treats. He's ambivalent about food.

So I'm to remove his toys and starve him for 24 hrs before he is seen in order that he might accept some kind of reward...otherwise it can be hard to do reward based training.

Just wondering if there is anything I can do to make the appt go as well as can be

OP posts:
Original poster
Santaspelvicfloor · 20/12/2013 17:57

Well this is very confusing. This dog has had this problem for a long time. I've literally just had same trigger situation of doorbell and done the No.....Bed routine and reward

and he did it? Not terrified, not shouting...calm and good.

Yet you are all saying it is wrong.

OP posts:
Original poster
Santaspelvicfloor · 20/12/2013 17:58

No spray either!! Just a couple of quiet commands. He took the spray away with him

OP posts:
Jenda · 20/12/2013 18:01

I don't know any dog training but my mum was always told to ignore the dog upon entry. Can I ask what you should do instead? Genuine question, not.provoking

Santa, I see others don't agree but Im glad you had a good result Smile

Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:03

Agree, air spray is classed as aversive. A decent trainer/behaviourist would advise environmental management in the first instance. Make sure your dog can't get to the door when the bell rings using stair gates or doors. Then will help you to work on doorbell desensitisation and probably eventually help you to condition your dog so that the doorbell means go to bed/ mat when it rings.

No air spray required, calm dog.

Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:05

It's just rude to ignore a dog when you come in. I say hello to mine, put my shopping down, make sure he is in a sit and give him some fuss, he is happy that I am home and wants to say hello.

DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:09

Lilcamper I have created behaviour modification programmes for several dogs suffering from separation anxiety and while it's nice to greet the average dog on your return, it is not doing a separation anxious dog any favours. It simply heightens the significance of the owner and the owner's return to the dog, which is counter productive.

Jenda · 20/12/2013 18:10

Oh ok I see. Yes we say hello and then get ourselves in before we give lots of attention. I think thats ok.

CalamityKate · 20/12/2013 18:10

The thing is - aversives can and do work.

But there are two main objections to using them.

  1. Positive, NON aversive methods work just as well if not better. Aversive methods can have fallout; eg if a dog is barking due to anxiety using an aversive can stop the barking but it will simply suppress it. The dog is still anxious - probably even more so now that it associates another unpleasant thing with whatever it was barking at in the first place! - and may well replace barking with a different anxiety based behaviour. Positive methods actually take the anxiety - the root cause of the barking - away.

  2. Why would anyone WANT to use aversives if kinder methods work equally well if not better?

If your trainer doesn't know how to train without aversives he shouldn't be calling himself a trainer.

Imsosorryalan · 20/12/2013 18:11

To be honest, if you are sure of the behaviourists credentials and he has come recommended, I'd be inclined to go with him rather than strangers on the internet. He has seen and spoken to you in detail.

Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:14

Death, I know all this, it doesn't appear from the OP that this dog has separation issues, but was reacting to the doorbell and then bit the Op's friend when they tried to catch him. Hyped up dog, grabbed by friend equalled bite.

Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:18

Alan, some credentials aren't worth the paper they are written on, or worth as much as the person who googled paid for them on the internet. The industry is unregulated and anyone can watch a celebrity trainer on the telly, decide they want to do it and set themselves up as a behaviourist.

DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:18

I thought the bit where the dog reached a snarling fury when the OP left was pretty suggestive of SA. Of course none of us have witnessed this first hand.

Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:23

Right, didn't see that, Apologies for skim reading Death.

Original poster
Santaspelvicfloor · 20/12/2013 18:35

This is interesting in a funny way.

Trainer said a lot of the things you are all saying (unregulated industry etc) He comes highly recommended and his technique worked. The dog was stressed on his arrival (same as any visitor) and remained like that whilst we chatted. Trainer acknowledged his stress and waited for him to settle before demonstrating techniques. The 'aversion' was stressed as a limited activity to get attention in a non responsive dog not as a long term technique. I doubt we will ever do that again as his attention was grabbed. The rest of it the dog loved and was happy and engaged.

It worked so I'm struggling to see why I should dismiss the evidence, recommendations etc.

He is a snarling fury when I exit and when visitors come (or was...I anticipate a huge improvement if I continue the regime of simple commands)

OP posts:
DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:38

Well obviously the history we have here is very basic but in my opinion most of this man's advice is sound and asked at reducing your significance to the dog as well as altering the reactivity to the doorbell.

The only thing I would do differently is use a positive interrupter instead of the air spray. IIRC kikopup has a YouTube tutorial on this subject - no time to search it out but Google it or search her channel for it.

I am not a behaviourist, for the record, just a vet. I'm very interested in canine learning theory and practice and I have had good success managing and treating staightforward behaviour cases. I refer difficult or severe cases on to CCABs where possible. My interest is not so much in training but I have a good understanding of the treatment of most behaviour problems. I'm not totally sold on this man but much of his advice is consistent with what I would expect a good, modern behaviour counsellor to suggest.

DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:39

Asked=aimed

Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:44

It's the air spray and the 'no' that I worry about, agree a positive interrupter would be far more appropriate.

LtEveDallas · 20/12/2013 18:46

We have a dog with separation anxiety, and were also advised to ignore her when we first came in (she used to cry, pee and snarl). It worked very well.

She was also nervy and growling with visitors and again we were advised to ignore it and then to treat when she was calm. We had to ask brave friends to help us (she never bit or snapped, but was very vocal) and it took some months but now she will do one or two barks but remain where she is and settle much quicker.

I think part of the problem with ignoring (the reason people don't like it) is that it is similar to the 'no look no fuss no eye contact' that CM pontificates about, and a lot of us don't agree with his methods.

DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:47

Asked=aimed

DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:47

Asked=aimed

DeathByLaundry · 20/12/2013 18:50
Lilcamper · 20/12/2013 18:55

Tis Christmas Grin

NuttyMuttie · 20/12/2013 18:57

I totally agree that aversives do work and often work quickly - however over time you will have fall out. I am a qualified to doctorate level dog behaviourist who would never ever use them or suggest clients use them.

I suggest that the guy you saw was not a qualified behaviourist but a trainer who has worked with dogs for a long time.

When using aversive one of two things will happen in the long run. Either the dog will find alternative behaviour or the aversive will stop working. Then you have to up the aversive so you will move from an air spray (because your dog is hard core!) to something that causes more distress.

If dog training was so easy that a "no" or a squirt of compressed air was a long term solution there really would be no need for behaviourists or any badly behaved dogs.

I have been there too and seen what seems like instant results but I will be interested to see where you are in 6 weeks or 6 months time - I bet you have moved onto more aversive methods and be dealing with more problems than you are now.

Dirtybadger · 21/12/2013 14:41

As above he sounds like a trainer who's been training a little while. Some of the things he suggests are good. The "no" and spray are just lazy.

bellasuewow · 21/12/2013 23:10

Santas all dogs are different and it sounds like you have sorted the issues by seeing someone. Advice is well meant on here but to be fair no one can really tell you what is wrong or how to solve a problem like this unless they see your dog and they have some experience. I could only share my experience with you but I would not presume to tell you exactly what is wrong or prescribe the solution online.

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