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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

what do I need to know?

9 replies

howtodecide · 09/11/2013 16:34

We have decided to get a puppy. We are a family of 4 with 2 kids DD 6 DS 4. We are looking for a small, friendly dog who we shall get as a puppy and I've been reading lots about socialising them with the children, being the pack leader etc. We are going to view some puppies on wednesday pm just me and DH as we haven't yet told the children and I want us to have chosen one before we do.
When we go view them what should I be wary off? You hear a lot about bad breeders! What should we look for? Mum can be seen with the pups and they have had first vaccines, wormed etc.and are ready to go after the weekend. The puppies we are going to see on Wednesday are Miniature Schnauzers, although we are also considering border terriers aswell. Any hints/tips would be really welcome!

OP posts:
Floralnomad · 09/11/2013 17:17

Whatever you've read that mentions pack leaders ,indeed anything to do with packs is outdated rubbish so ignore it all .

idirdog · 09/11/2013 17:39

I think you probably need to read different books as pack theory is a load of bollocks and will not turn your new puppy into a happy sociable dog.

Books re Puppies I would start with:-
Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell and Brenda Scidmore
Life Skills for puppies by Helen Zulch and Daniel Mills

General book on how dogs learn:-
How dogs learn by Burch and Bailey

Below is advice below from an excellent dog trainer and professional.

Choosing a responsible breeder By Sadie Brunskill

If you have decided that rescuing/adopting or fostering a dog is not for you and you would prefer to buy a puppy from a breeder, please make sure that you are making a responsible choice and are not contributing in any way to the epidemic of unwanted dogs in the UK.

Here is a checklist for you to make sure that you are gaining a happy, healthy family member from a responsible person and some alarm bells that should tell you to be very, very cautious. It is by no means exaustive but, personally, I would not want to buy a puppy from a breeder who does not meet all of these criteria and I would walk away should any of my alarm bells sound.

A good breeder should…

… Allow you to see the mother with the puppies and show you a picture of Dad and his pedigree papers.

ALARM BELL - If mum and dad are in the same house be sure that they have chosen this mating carefully (taking into account both dog’s heritage and health) not just because they happened to acquire two dogs of the same breed and fancied mating them or it happened by "accident".

… Have details of mum and dad’s ancestors going back at least three generations and be able to show that they are free from genetic diseases and conditions. Contact a breed club to find out what tests the breeder should have carried out on mum and dad before the mating.

… Register litters with the Kennel Club. Primarily to ensure that records of all dogs are kept. It is the law that records of all cattle bred and sold in the UK are kept by the government; it should absolutely be the same for dogs. This way close breeding can be avoided and any genetic diseases can be eliminated without dogs needing to suffer from painful conditions like hip dysplasia or epilepsy. If these conditions are not tracked – there is no way to know if/when they are going to crop up; it is pot luck.

ALARM BELL – if the breeder does not register with the Kennel Club and is not able to show you proof that she is breeding from healthy dogs then your puppy could develop a painful or fatal condition and, if owners of other dogs from the litter decide to breed (without knowing what their dog is carrying), these conditions could travel through hundreds of dogs causing unnecessary suffering to both the dogs and their families.

… Rear the puppies in a home environment and follow an early socialisation plan from day one, getting the puppies used to different noises, surfaces, being handed, etc.

ALARM BELL – if your puppy is being kept in a kennel or barn and not in the family home it is unlikely to be getting the best early socialisation. Puppies that are not appropriately socialised before the critical socialisation window closes, at around 12 to 16 weeks, are far more likely to become anxious and aggressive adult dogs. The earlier you can get a puppy used to all of the things he will encounter in his adult life - the happier and more confident the dog will grow up to be.

… Be happy to answer questions about their dogs (most good breeders will relish the opportunity to talk about them!) and they will also have a lot to ask you. They will want to know about your life and insist on visiting your home. Try not to take this personally - good breeders care about their dogs and will take an interest in them for their whole life.

ALARM BELL – If a breeder does not seem interested in you, is happy to let you take the puppy away without seeing your home or getting to know you or gives you a sob story like “this dog will be put to sleep if you do not buy him today” you are dealing with a puppy farmer. Do not buy the puppy. Walk away.

… Compete in breed showing, dog sports or working trials (or be able to tell you of dogs that they have bred who do) to prove that they are fit and healthy examples of their breed with good temperaments or working ability.

ALARM BELL – Even if you are buying a puppy from working dogs, from a farm for example, all of the afore mentioned rules for good breeding practice still apply. You must also be aware of your dog’s particular breed traits and drives and be prepared to give them some sort of job to fulfil them.

… Will not let their pups leave for their new home until somewhere between 8 and 12 weeks.

ALARM BELL – Beware of people making excuses as to why the puppy will be ready earlier than this. It is essential that the litter stay with the mum until 8 weeks to learn bite inhibition and develop social skills.

… Will have you sign a contract or at least have you verbally agree that if for any reason you need to re-home your dog (at any point in his or her life) he is returned to them. Responsible breeders love their dogs. They do not want them to be relinquished into the already-stressed rescue system, passed around or put to sleep.

ALARM BELL – If a breeder is re-homing or selling their dogs (especially ones they have bred from) then it is obvious that they do not take responsibility for their dogs entire lives. No dog is a commodity to a good breeder, they are always a family member.

… Breed their dogs for the love of the breed - to improve the health and fitness of their breed. Not for profit, purely for looks or by “accident”.

ALARM BELL – If a breeder is producing crosses (“designer dogs”) they should still have all relevant health checks done on both parents. It is a common misunderstanding that cross bred dogs or mongrels will be healthier than pedigree dogs. They are just as likely to inherit genetic conditions from both parents. If a breeder who is producing cross breeds or more than one breed is a responsible breeder according to all of the points I have covered in this list, I would be very surprised. You are more likely to be dealing with a puppy farmer or back yard breeder who is cashing in on the latest trend for “designer dogs” and the media-fuelled confusion about pedigrees.

Really wonderful, responsible, caring breeders often have homes lined up for their puppies before they are even conceived and waiting lists for planned litters.
Irresponsible breeders are churning them out at such a rate that you can get one immediately if you are looking to impulse-buy a life-long companion. It really is worth the wait for your perfect puppy; both in terms of their health and temperament as adults and to do your part towards countering the throwaway pet culture of the UK.

Never, ever buy a puppy from a pet shop, online website or buy/swap/sell site, newspaper advert or from someone who did not breed the litter (a puppy dealer).

Great breeders do not need or want to advertise and no responsible breeder would sell their puppies to a middle man.

If you do happen to find yourself in the home or business premises of an irresponsible breeder, please try and think logically - do not buy the puppy.

You may think that you are saving him from this terrible situation or look into those little eyes and believe that you are unable to refuse but you would only be fuelling this unethical trade should you give them your money.

He will only be shortly replaced by another.

Of course I urge all of my clients to rescue or foster because there are so many unwanted dogs in the UK in desperate need of homes, but this is not enough to solve the problem.

We need to look at the bigger picture and where these dogs are coming from. It is not from responsible breeders (who meet all of the conditions I have listed above and more).

It is not useful to tar every person who breeds dogs with the same brush. Although, unfortunately the responsible breeders are in the minority, they do exist.

Of course the dogs in rescue need loving families but we can also stop this epidemic at the source. We need to be logical as well as passionate to make a real difference. If the demand for these irresponsibly-bred dogs stops, eventually so will the supply.

idirdog · 09/11/2013 17:40

Is it bad MN etiquette to do a ridiculously long thread? - sorry Blush

PinkFairyArmadillo · 09/11/2013 17:41

Miniature schnauzers are very popular with puppy farmers so it can be a bit of a minefield finding a decent breeder.

This is a great little guide. The Kennel Club also has some good information.

Is the breeder a member of the Miniature Schnauzer Club? They have a code of ethics which all members should follow, obviously it's not a guarantee of a decent breeder but it's a good start. I'd be asking to see the health test results for both the sire and dam (their eyes should have been tested under the BVA/KC scheme and I think possibly hips should have been scored as well) or you can check here on the KC website if you have the sire and dam's registered names.

Expect meeting the breeder to be like the Spanish inquisition, be wary if they're not grilling you about yourselves, your lifestyle and why you chose that breed and them as a breeder. Don't be surprised if they want to meet your children before letting you reserve a puppy, many breeders will want to meet the whole family. I'd also be asking why they have puppies unreserved so close to them being ready to go. Of course there are genuine reasons why they might not but I'd expect a good breeder who has bred for the right reasons to have most, if not all, puppies spoken to well before they're ready to leave.

The breeder should also be happy to answer any questions you have so don't be afraid to grill them in return. A decent breeder should make it very clear that if for any reason you can no longer keep the pup at any point in the future it should be returned to them and they will gladly accept it back.

Having had their first vaccinations can cause issues with completing the course at your own vets if they use a different brand of vaccine. They may either have to start the course again with their brand of choice or order in another brand, both of which will delay getting the pup out and about.

Forget about dominance/pack leader based training, it's been thoroughly discredited. Kikopup/Emily Larlham has some fantastic training articles and videos, all free, on her website and YouTube.

PinkFairyArmadillo · 09/11/2013 17:43

Cross posted with a great response from idirdog Grin

howtodecide · 09/11/2013 17:47

thank you that is so so helpful.....slightly concerned now that the puppies haven't already been reserved (they are 8 weeks so ready for their homes now) would that concern you?

.....I have ordered Life Skills for puppies so hopefully that will arrive soon!

I will go on wednesday armed with this info with my sensible (not emotional) head on! This is exactly why we have decided not to involve the kids in choosing the puppy as I know DD particularly will find it hard to see them and then not get one (especially if she feels sorry for them). I am wondering now whether to contact one of the kennel club assured breeders of both breeds and discuss any upcoming litters with them (sorry thinking aloud now!

OP posts:
PinkFairyArmadillo · 09/11/2013 18:16

Not having all the puppies reserved wouldn't necessarily be an immediate red flag for me but I would want to know why. Have they had reservations that have fallen through or are they struggling to find people to buy them? I'd also ask whether the breeder is keeping a puppy and if they're not ask why they chose to breed. Most good breeders tend to only breed when they want a puppy.

Personally I think it's much better to find a breeder and potentially have to wait a little for a puppy than looking for a puppy and restricting yourself to those who have puppies on the ground now. It's definitely worth waiting to get a puppy from the right breeder.

bellasuewow · 09/11/2013 21:23

Have always rescued but never bought so found this thread fascinating and a very good guide to reputable breeding I hope anyone looking at buying a puppy reads this it has been an eye opener for me. It has made me realise why a lot of the dogs I have fostered have had health and behavioural issues because they have not been bred and socialised responsably well seems obvious now. They do end up in the rescue system.

needastrongone · 09/11/2013 21:32

Even without the children there, it's hard to remain unemotional when faced with a litter of puppies.

Our breeder did all of the above, plus has our dog whenever we go away, as part of the commitment to the puppy she sold us. He comes back slightly insane, as he's with mum and grandma, plus she child minds part time but he's well loved when he's there!

We also had to agree to only ever rehome him with her, if we ever had to make that decision, which we don't, but her commitment was for life iyswim?

Breeder doesn't have to be on a large scale either, ours only breeds once from her bitches, and just to gain another pup. I think there's four years each between all her dogs, if that makes sense?

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