Help me untangle my thoughts about having dog PTS

[HarderToKidnap]

He is ten, a toy breed. Had arthritis for 4 years, flaring up on and off but since June he's sort of had the final flare up and both black legs now cannot bend at all. Obviously his mobility is awful but he can still go on short walks and get in and out of dog flap. Since September he has been diagnosed with liver disease, he is fine in himself but on lots of meds etc.

Since September he has weed in the house around seven times, always in the same place in the dining room. We have ripped up the carpet as he wee stinks, it really is the most foul and disgusting smell, no UTI by the way. Put a rug down and he has peed on it again yesterday. No reason that I can see, he just seems to have got a bit fixated on this part of the house. 99% of the time he goes outside through dog flap or on his walks. Weeks will go by fine and then another wee in the same area. We moved house in September I should say. In the old house he was starting to have a few accidents, again in the same place every time.

I've got a toddler, the dining room is where we play etc so I want a rug down but can't have one, it seems. Dog can't be kept out of room as it is where the dog flap is. Dog seems happy enough although doesn't have a huge amount of enthusiasm for anything but still potters about on walks etc.

I love dog dearly but it sure I can have an animal messing in the house. That's a line for me. His mobility is shit, he can barely walk sometimes, falls over a lot etc, plus liver disease. His meds cost best part of 200 quid a month, most of which is arthritis meds and therefore not covered in insurance. Just wondering whether we are coming to the end of the line with him? Vet says his quality of life is till good. So confused.

This was pretty much the situation I was in with my Border Collie who I had to have pts last month. He was 14 and had arthritis, his back legs would go completely sometimes on walks but he seemed generally happy.

About a month ago he started wetting himself and dribbling. I took him to the vets who found a testicular lump and he had poor kidney function. Given his age and the fact his legs would only get worse even if the lump and kidney problems could be sorted out I made the decision to have him pts.

The vet was lovely, she asked me what I thought his quality of life was like and I said whilst he loved his walks he was upset with the incontinence and that sometimes he just sort of looked a bit sad. Saying it to her made me realise having him pts was the fairest thing to do, and she agreed.

Imo often we hang onto our pets longer than we should for ourselves. I'd put off having him pts for a while but any longer would have been selfish.

You know better than your vet how happy your dog is, what my vet said was it's no good him just being happy sometimes, he should have a good overall quality of life.

Sorry if I've gone on a bit, it's such a hard decision.

I think you know deep down what needs to be done. It's a very hard decision to make but there is nothing worse than an old dog being coaxed along on medication longer than necessary. I had my old lab pts last year, his spine was fused so could not sit, he had signs of dementia and he was soiling in the house and his bed(completely unbeknown to him) the only time he got out of his bed was to go on a walk. He could walk slowly for 25 mins, which some will say is excellent, but for him it was shit, 6 months earlier he was still covering 10 miles pheasant beating! My vet agreed that it was best to let him go before he got too bad and looking back on it all I'm pleased I made the decision when I did. My dog had been unhappy for a few months, the little twinkle in his eyes had gone, he was tired and had had enough. You know your dog not your vet...

Obviously only you can assess your dogs quality of life but without trying to be harsh your OP does read as ' should I have my dog PTS because he pees indoors and his medication costs £200 per month' . If you feel his quality of life is poor then PTS ,if its because you don't want a dog that pees indoors and costs a lot of money then its still your choice ,for me the latter would not be a good enough reason but we are all different and it's you that is living with the dog . Good luck whatever you decide .

Vet says his quality of life is till good.
I love dog dearly but it sure I can have an animal messing in the house. That's a line for me.

It honestly sounds like you want the dog PTS because the dog pees on the floor and medication is expensive. It's probably not meant to sound that bad though.

How about putting those puppy pads down where he pees?
If it has only happened 7 times in 2 months then maybe there's a more simple reason why it happens - stress or similar? Does it happen when he's alone in the room or when he's with the family there?

Good luck whatever you do.

Be honest with yourself. If your dog is still having a good life and no pain etc then now is not the right time.

If he is in pain then you have to do what is right for him.

It does sound from your post (and I happy to be wrong) that you are fed up with him weeing and not that he has reached the end of the road yet.

There must be a solution for him re the weeing in the room, does he do it when you are around or when you go out, what time of day does he do it, can you take him outside more regularly to remind him where he has to wee etc.

I would work out a solution for him personally to enable him to have a few more happy months - until it is clearly the right thing to do to PTS. For me if I had to asked then I would say it is not the right thing to do for your dog

He sounds very much like our eldest. He's 14 years old, in heart failure and has arthritis in his hips. We spend a similar amount on medication for him every month. He'll wee in the house sometimes first thing in the morning if we don't get him outside quick enough (not his fault, he can't hold it like he used to) and if the weather is bad and he gets the opportunity to sneak off and wee somewhere inside

We've started treating him similarly to a puppy, rather than letting him decide when he wants to go out we put him out every couple of hours during the day and he now doesn't get the chance to wee inside.

You say he always goes on the same spot, have you thoroughly cleaned it with a cleaner designed to break down and remove any traces of urine? If he can still smell it, he'll keep going on it. The Simple Solution products are really good.

Has he been to the vet to check if it's a physical problem?

Do you rely on him getting himself outside when he needs to go out? If the weather is getting colder he may well be deciding that he'd rather not bother going outside at all.

I'm very much a believer in the saying "better a day too soon than a minute too late" when it comes to the decision to PTS but it has to be about the dog and their quality of life.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I would only want dog put to sleep when it's the right time... But wondering whether him soiling in the house means it's the right time even if he's fine in other ways iykwim? He's always been so clean otherwise. I feel sure it's some sort of fixation with the spot he's weeing on rather than a physical problem. He never does it when we're in the room. Doesn't do it when we're out the house either but thence isn't left on his own very often so could be coincedence. I suppose there is a part of me that thinks, we'll, we've given him a good life for a long time, he's reaching the end of the road generally speaking anyway, should I push him in for a few months/a year or so, cleaning up piss all that time, when actually his quality of life is going to go downhill in that time anyway?

Because he is going in the same place though it doesn't sound like he is incontinent as such because then he'd be going all over the place and doing it more often . That said ,if him going indoors is a deal breaker for you then that's your choice .

Don't want to sound too harsh but it sounds to me that you have already made your mind up.

The fact that he is repeatedly peeing in the same spot is clear that you haven't removed the smell properly. As others have said, use a decent cleaner, which is designed to break down the pee enzymes. With an elderly dog you should expect occasional accidents, and the frequency you've described is not severe incontinence - very far from it.

Personally, I couldn't imagine wanting to kill my dog because of an occasional accident in the house, but you sound as if you've already decided.

Of course I haven't already decided, why would I post here if I had?

So if he's incontinent, why is it the same spot? Surely incontinece would manifest itself as peeing all over the house whenever he couldn't hold it, not going in the same place repeatedly. That would appear to be deliberate? The smell is sickening, I have sprayed with vinegar and water, then sprinkled bicarbonate and left to soak, then vacuumed, then washed the rug. And prior to this I ripped the fucking carpet up, so don't see how my cleaning can be in question.

Scuttle, I hate your comment. I don't want to kill my dog, FGS. I adore my dog and have done forever. I want to do the best for him. He can barely walk, has liver disease and is peeing in the house. I don't KNOW what to do for the best. Being so glibly vile about it when I am wrestling with something so heart breaking, how can you?

I don't really feel like updating this now. Suffice to say he spent the day with the vet today having ultrasounds and more bloods, and got some more news which clarifies things slightly. I would like to discuss these results but I'll find another forum.

Harder sorry you're upset at some of the replies. I think maybe your initial post came across as though the reason you were thinking of getting him pts was because of the accidents, and 7 times in a few months is not a lot. Near the end I was cleaning up constantly every day and I have a baby and 6 year old so wee all over the place was a nightmare.

Anyway, from what you said I'd be more worried re his legs and liver and I took it that the weeing in one spot problem was just an extra thing thats kind of really made you think maybe its time as it is out of character?

It sounds like you could go on treating him and maybe he'd last another year or however long but you really need to decide if you feel he still has a happy pain free life and do what is best for him.

OP I'm sorry you've been upset at some of these replies, you must be agonizing over your poor boy.

Its not JUST the weeing is it, he's in pain, has a life limiting illness that will make him suffer ultimately.

Losing his dignity on top of it all is heartbreaking, so yes with heavy heart I'd be considering it too.

Always hard but ultimately I believe its the last loving thing we can do for our beloved pets, to let them go peacefully.

Agree with everything Miss Marple just said. If he has liver problems and arthritis any treatment he is having is just palliative really. It was the same with my dog, on the end as devastated as I was to lose him I did what was best for him.

OP. From what you have posted about the weeing I don't think you have cleaned the area properly. Just because by or can't smell it doesn't me your dog can't. You need to use an specialist cleaner (not expensive) that is specifically designed to remove all traces of urine.

That's a really harsh comment Scuttlebutter.

Some of the comments on here are really cruel.Obviously the OP isn't wanting to 'kill' her dog or, as she says she would have just gone ahead and done it a while ago, she wouldn't bother posting on here.

None of us can know what her dog's day to day life is like except the OP, but from what she's saying I think MissMarplesBloomers has probably got it about right.

His quality of life doesn't sound good to me: dragging himself around, falling down, messing in the house. Is that a good way to live? I think I'd be inclined to go back to your vet and go through the whole thing in a bit more detail OP. Even get a second opinion. It's your decision to make and your vet should support you.

It's a horrible decision to have to make, I'm coming towards it with my elderly cat at the moment, but I'm another one who feels sooner is better than later. I hate the idea of an animal suffering for any time because someone is afraid of not waiting for the optimum moment.

Whatever you decide to do OP. I wish you well.

pigs in the OP she said the dog was 'fine in himself' , she has drip fed information somewhat as people didn't agree with her ,for example if the dog was at the vets for investigations yesterday why not put that in the OP as it is extremely relevant . I don't think anyone has been particularly harsh and TBH you are going to get a variety of responses on a dog forum . There are many people with incontinent dogs who are more than happy to carry on living with them if that dog is still happy and enjoying his life .Quite honestly it amazes me why people start these threads if they are going to get all affronted when people disagree with them .

If him wetting in the house is the only issue here (of course, it isn't) then that is relatively easily solved. You say he is peeing in the same place, its because he can still smell it, remember how sensitive dogs noses are. To get rid of the smell completely you need to clean the area with biological washing up liquid and then apply methelated spirits and dab it dry. That will stop him returning to one spot to go - this may or may not solve your problem. If my dogs have accidents and i don't do this, they will return and do it again the buggers

Please do come back, there is some good advice on this thread. Yes, if i thought you were PTS due to toileting i would call you a cunt myself but its just part of the issue so i don't think scuttle was fair to jump on you that way.

It sounds like your dog is costing you £££s i think you need to have a very frank discussion with your vet, its difficult because if he has good but deteriorating quality of life, but could be kept going for another year then the factors are - how much quality of life does he have and can you afford to keep him comfortable - i certainly couldndt afford £200 a month. The soiling in the house becomes an issue, although i wouldn't euthanase a dog because of this personally, but it is part of the whole picture.

Then if the dog only has a few months to live and his quality of life is questionable then its a different decision, you can live with the toileting problems for a short period of time and its about making him comfy as you possibly can.

Its a tough decision to have to make, i used to be a vet nurse and we would tell clients to listen to their gut, your heart will never let you let them go and your head will try and rationalise things too much - but when you get that horrible feeling in the pit of your stomach, then its time.

Thanks for the further advice and kind words. Floral, how could I be affronted at people disagreeing with me? I hadn't made my mind up!! I was asking for advice on a very difficult thing to decide and got flamed by people more interested in scoring points and showing off their "look how much I love dogs" credentials rather than actually interested in any way in helping my dog. Fuck them.

Anyway, I will ask for advice here as I've had some posters who actually give a shit. An ultrasound and showed the gall bladder was full of sludge which meant it has difficult draining, putting pressure in the liver and causing the hepatomegaly. The tissues look healthy though which is good. So I have some meds for that. As an incidental finding they noticed the bladder is stretched and the urine full of crystals, and calcium crystals could also be causing the problems in the gall bladder, do there could be an underlying cause for everything. Explains the smell and possible occasional incontinence. I have some abx for this but he's been on them before, quite a few times in the last few months and I haven't seen a change. But it's a higher dose so if there has been an underlying UTI then hopefully this will clear it up. Back in two weeks for more blood tests to see if meds are working and for a specialised blood test. Every time I go they say this is the last investigation, then when I pick him up they have thought of more to do, again this is another factor as he finds going to the vet for the day so bloody stressful and at the moment it's every fortnight. I want to tell them to stop prodding and poking, just leave him on current meds but I am in fears of him having liver failure and me not spotting the signs.

Incidentally, my mum, experienced dog lover and owner, and MIL, both think we've already left it too late and his mobility probs are so bad that we are cruel to keep him alive. MIL actually cries whenever he walks about (drama queen).

My current plan is in new meds for two weeks, back for these blood tests and then a frank chat with vet about prognosis etc. I'd like a second opinion as I find our vet a bit mercenary, he almost danced with glee when an ultrasound first revealed this liver problem, incidentally something he'd missed despite seeing the dog pretty much weekly over the previous 8 months, we went on hols and he'd a UTI and the fab vet there picked it up. Not sure how I could get a second opinion without new vet repeating al the millions of tests though.

Your situation is similar to mine, my dog hated going to our vets and I always felt that the vet was more interested in making money rather than what was best for my dog. In his last week when I wanted his urine checked and him looked at I changed to a new vet so that he wouldn't be so distressed going. The vet was lovely and rather than suggesting lots of tests and treatments she actually said that whilst she could treat the UTI and then see if the lump could be removed and see if she could find the cause for his poor kidney function etc that if he was her dog she would have him pts. I was crying before she even gave me the prognosis as I knew deep down it was time for him to go.

My dogs mobility doesn't sound like it was as bad as yours is, he could still bound about on walks, but then sometimes his back legs would go and he'd collapse and look upset. I couldn't stand the thought of his legs going completely and him having to be pts in that situation.

I honestly think having your dog pts would be the kindest thing to do, if he was younger and didn't have arthritis then maybe the tests and treatments would be worthwhile but you can't improve his mobility.

Re the vet I would try another vet in your area, give them the history and ask for their opinion. Or if you have made the decision to have your dog pts then just tell your vet this. If it upsets your dog going to the vets further tests etc at this stage seem a bit unfair and unnecessary.

Also my family were saying exactly the same to me, that it was time for him, I selfishly hung onto him a little longer than I probably should have.

I'm a vet. If one of my clients came to me and said they were struggling with costs (I realise you haven't said this OP), their dog was wetting in the house and that they weren't sure how much quality of life it was enjoying, I'd offer them PTS.

I don't think it's a terrible thing to want to draw a line under things when your dog has multiple incurable problems which will only deteriorate. I don't think life is so simple that a puppy pad is all that's needed to solve a wetting problem. And it's not my job to make owners feel guilty for coming to what is an extremely tough decision.

Caring for a geriatric dog can be emotionally and financially tough, not to mention a practical challenge. All too often it would actually be kinder to the pet to stop the tests and medication and fussing and let them go gently and peacefully. And even if that's not the case, while it might be ethically distasteful to euthanase a well animal, it has no impact on the animal's welfare.

Some of these replies have been too harsh and I'm sorry you've been stung like this OP. Go with your gut. You might find it helpful to talk this over with one of the nurses at your practice. I don't think there's a wrong thing to do, for what it's worth.

Thanks for your replies. I'm thinking we'll carry on til after Christmas and review then. Rug is in bin now so only bare floorboards down. Deathbylaudnry, may I ask a question? I have have fed dog on the BARF diet for the last four years and have been reading that meat proteins can cause strain on the liver. Did I cause this liver disease by using the BARF diet? I am eaten up with guilt and horror that I may have done this, especially as I had to convince DH and everyone else that it was a good idea. I can take it if it is my fault, I'm loathe to ask my vet though. X

A balanced raw diet is much closer to a 'natural' diet than the cereal-based foods most people feed their dogs. And lots of dogs fed kibble and tinned diets also sadly develop liver disease as they age. I don't think you have any reason to feel guilty.

If you want a second opinion the other vet will probably ask your current vet to send them a history, this is common practice and would not mean a repeat of all the tests that he has had done. For me, i think if i could reasonably assure myself that my dog wasn't in pain and could for the most part get out to toilet, even if it is just to the back garden i would continue, if he is wetting because he can't get out and he starts to wet himself, ie wetting where he is laying then i think it would be time. If your dog has liver disease this should have been apparent on the blood tests, the ultrasound would be confirmation.

Can i just say one thing and deahbylaundry will clearly be better placed to advise here but I had gall stones and I have never been so ill in all my life, the pain made childbirth look like a walk in the park. Now gallstones in humans can give varying levels of pain, from nothing through discomfort to agony. I have not heard of dogs having gall stones, i'm not sure if you would expect crystals in the bladder to be associated with gallstones either? I don't know. I had my gall bladder removed -sorted, i assume this isn't feasible for dogs? Just thnking "aloud" really. I would definately be seeking reassurance that the dog wasn't in pain.

If i am very honest, i have to say that I think you need to make a decision soon.