Does this sound mad? Dog peeing in the house to prove a point?

[MrTumblesBavarianFanbase]

Sorry, this is long. Want to know if this is a "real" dog thing, or if I am reading into it.

We got a rescue dog (castrated female adult, roughly 2 years old, mixed breed but spaniel-ish) about a month ago. She is house trained.

Background: the first 3 weeks with her were really, really, really, really stressful. Very possessive of me. Ignores the kids - so in that sense "good" with them - tolerant, but only interested in me, and connected to that jealous of the kids if I am paying attention to them 1:1, excluding her (for example helping with shoes and rain wear or comforting after falls and bumps - youngest is 2 - goes into a barking frenzy, tries to get between me and the child I am attending to, only way to deal with it to shut her outside, where she barks furiously without stopping, and throws herself at the door. Afraid of my husband and any man who walks towards her (doesn't mind them if they are minding their own business and not interested in her). Lots of barking issues - at night, 2 hourly roughly, and early in the morning - from 5.30am she barks without stopping at all, even after being let outside and back in again, until I stay downstairs. She also is food obsessed and tries to steal food at any opportunity, including at a run from a large 6 year old child walking from worktop to table with a plate significantly above her line of sight. Also stomach issues - fairly bad diarrhoea roughly every other day, even when she hasn't managed to steal food, though she doesn't "seem" ill - plenty of bounce...

Charity we got her from have gone no contact on us and aren'T returning my calls for help. (We are abroad, charity is paroshunde).

Now she seems (touch wood etc.) to have settled down a bit - the barking at least has improved a lot, as has the food stealing - if I am watching from very close by she won't try now, the jealousy has improved a bit, and the frenzies in the house. She won't walk through a door past DH or let him near her to clip her lead on or stroke her but will sit relatively close. She seems to have been getting better...

But - she seems to be deliberately peeing on the floor inside (usually the kitchen) to "spite" (for want of a better word) me, or teach me a lesson, or prove a point - or something.

I work term time evenings only, just twice a week, and our semester only started last week - when I came home from being out at work (leaving her with DH, who put the kids to bed then sat on the sofa) I greeted her and let her out for 5 mins, then back in - she walked into the kitchen where I was making a cup of tea, looked straight at me, then crouched and peed on the floor.

She did this again the next time I went to work (I don't work in the day, but she doesn't do it if I go out with the kids in the day and leave her home alone).

She also peed on the floor repeatedly when my parents and my husband's parents all came to our house at the same time to celebrate children's birthdays. The garden door was open the whole time but she peed on the living room rug, right by the open door. Strangely when DD had 8, 8 year old girls over for her kids birthday party she was totally unphased - but 4 extra adults put her back up. This one we put down to stress, but now not so sure - it was the first occasion this "deliberate" peeing in the house happened, and I am now thinking it was more protest or territory marking than stress.

This evening I have been in and out of the kitchen as I had something (human food) cooking slowly. For some reason she decided about 4pm I was going to feed her (2 hours early) and got more and more over excited each time I went in there. Then, about 5pm she followed me in, I went to check on the pan and she crouched and peed - she'd only just been out, about 5 mins before.

She doesn't seem to have pee accidents other than these "deliberate" seeming ones - she can be left for 3 hours in the mornings home alone and no accident happens in that time.

Am I mad, or do dogs do this for some dog-psychological reason? What can I do about it?

TBH tonight it just made me angry, I was sympathetic when we had extra adults in the house, thought she was overwhelmed or stressed, but, well, this now seems vindictive or as if she is trying to show me what I get for doing something she dislikes (going out and leaving her with DH, or not feeding her when she decides she wants to be fed even though it isn't her meal time)

I guarantee you it will not be out of spite or revenge. Dogs just don't have the mental capacity to do these very human things.

If you don't have her history it is very likely she just doesn't know what she is doing is wrong in our eyes because no one has taught her what she does need to do. If she was kenneled she will be used to just weeing whenever the urge is there.

It might be an idea to take her to the vet and make sure she doesn't have a UTI.

Then you need to take her back to the very beginning with toilet training just like you would a puppy. This is a very good resource on the subject toilet training

Good luck.

I agree with Lil. It isn't spite, and the above advice is sound.

However, my old girl would occasionally pee in strange places when we had visitors. When we first moved into this house she went upstairs and peed on the bed any guests were using. She also did it on bedding in the living room when family were staying there. I think it was a mixture of confusion, stress and marking.

I would encourage you to use an Adaptil collar for a few months and to give something like Zylkene over periods of extra stress. Your vet will be able to supply these. I'd also try to engage her in something like clicker training in the house to stimulate her and build on her bond with you, or even better with yor family, so she starts to feel more secure and confident.

Clicker training is awesome. Have a look at the Kikopup channel on you tube or get the book 'Clicker Training For Dogs' by Karen Pryor. Dogs love it and my bond with my dog is so much stronger since starting it.

Can I say that I think you are expecting too much too soon? This is a dog with major issues and is already making progress which is great, but she is having to deal with a huge amount of change in her life which she is clearly finding stressful and challenging. She has only been with you a matter of weeks.

It's entirely normal for a stressed dog to take several months to fully settle into a new home, become comfortable and learn to engage with the family, let alone visitors. One of our reactive fosters has taken a year to adapt to my ILs. He got there, but it's been a long haul. Please, take the long view with this dog.

I entirely agree with the very sound advice provided upthread but would just add that you need to be very much more patient. Also, have you checked how and with what you are cleaning where she wees? Some cleaners do not remove the smell of urine, so the dog will return quite naturally to the same spot.

Also, both you and your DH need to be very switched on about "reading" her signals to go out. It's very easy to miss these with new, rescue dogs. Both you and she will learn to tell each other as you get to know each other but initially they are very subtle.

I am hugely disappointed in the way the rescue have let you down. That is despicable. I am not familiar with this particular rescue, and am aware that you are not in the UK, but this is one of the reasons why I am wary of unsupported adoptions from abroad - I've heard too many stories like yours and it is often the home country rescues who then have to step in and pick up the pieces.

Wishing you all the best - sending a large virtual gin your way.

And YY to clicker training. She's been with you long enough now to start this.

Lil she absolutely is house trained though and really clearly doesn't have bladder control issues.

She is peeing inside not long after being out, when I am there, but she never has accidents when left home alone for several hours, and in the 4 and a half weeks we've had her she's only had these pee in the house episodes on these specific occassions, not over night, or when home alone, nor when she's refused to go out if its cold and raining in the evening and she's ended up going perhaps 5 hours without going outdoors. From that I assume it can't possibly be a UTI or physical issue - must be psychological one way or the other. She has had diarrhoea in the house several (totally separate) times, but that is lack of control, disgusting and stomach churning but clearly not her fault - the peeing is making me cross absolutely because she does have full control (physically) over her bladder, and is house trained.

I am trying clicker training for other issues but it is hard to see how I can clicker train her not to pee on the floor when she is annoyed with me :/ It is also because of not being able to give her treats - direct and clear correlation between commercially available treats and diarrhoea (the foster carer we got her from didn't choose to tell us about her stomach issues ) I wanted to switch her to dry food, and use 1/3 of the dry food as treats (somebody on here suggested it), and thought this was working (trained her to go to her bed on command, which was really helpful with the barking and the frenzies and with "changing the rules" to not allow her on the sofa, which in itself has helped somewhat with the jealousy over me giving my youngest 1:1 cuddles and help, as she now seems to get that he is allowed on my lap on the sofa and she isn't) but then the diarrhoea hit again, so I have cut the dry food portion of her diet back again (was hoping to switch over 100%, slowly) and without food treats she is less inclined to follow the commands I had begun to teach her (sit, bed, and down - paws on the floor rather than lie down, as she jumps up at me and DD a lot, and jumps onto things, and spends a lot of time on her back legs.) I am trying with praise and affection/ fuss as a reward but it is far less motivating, and also makes her over excited when the fuss is OTT to try to make it more motivating, which is a bit counter productive! I just can#t be carrying cooked chicken around - I'm not even sure it is easier on her stomach as it is meant to be, and it just isn't practical.

poach whatever is going on, and given it isn't "spite" it is much more akin to what you describe your older dog doing - confusion, stress and territory marking then, given spite is beyond a dog's ken... I am utterly sure it isn't a physical problem nor is it that she has been previously used to going wherever and whenever, as she just doesn't have accidents except at these very specific times, when things are not going her way.

I will look into the Adaptil collar and Zylkene, thank you poach

Sorry Scuttlebutter cross posted and didn't see your reply! Thanks for the gin, much needed!

You may be right we are expecting too much - it is so frustrating though, doubly so as we thought we had prepared well for this - we did so much thinking about this before we got the dog, and we held out for one who'd been in foster in a family with young children, which she had - may huge worry was ending up with a dog who would be a risk to the children, but she's utterly unruffled by children unless they want to climb on my lap or I need to physically help them - she couldn't care less that the DC have lots of friends though the house. On that score things are good - but I had worried excessively over this one issue and by overly obsessing about child proofing the dog and dog proofing the children (read books etc.) I utterly failed to worry about the myriad issues that have come up.

In all honesty we're finding it hard to bond with her - hopefully it will come but the dog we have in the house isn't the one we met and fell in love with at the foster family's home (obviously they haven't switched dogs on us :o she just doesn't seem at all like the same dog, apart from in physical appearance :( Sometimes I don't want to come home, sometimes it seems as if it isn't my home any more, now she's here, barking and barking and barking and barking and coming between me and the toddler, or looking me in the eye then peeing on the floor My husband also says he doesn'Ät feel like rushing home from work and stays to finish stuff he wouldn't have bothered to before we got her, because she barks at him when he comes home and avoids him, he doesn't feel at home. If we had the support of the charity on this it would feel more manageable. The one dog school I have been to was also useless tbh and it feels as though there are a lot of obstacles.

It is early, you need to focus on the progress not on things you haven't cracked yet.

I don't think you've quite accepted that this isn't wilful spite yet. She may be looking you in the eye and urinating but she has no ability to try and upset you. You're probably also rewarding it with attention which won't help. You need to be truly neutral, shut her in another room and clean up with Simple Solution or biological washing powder.

Does she have a bed or crate that's reserved only for her?

It may be a stress reaction?

When we first got chickens, Patch found them super stimulating. He just couldn't break his attention from them and was obviously stressed. Even a full packet of smoked ham waved directly under his nose couldn't break his gaze (and he is food mad).

He used to come inside (when we managed to catch him) and almost as soon as he did, he'd pee, or poo. We too thought it was deliberate.

Then, we realised that it was when he was calming down. He was so stressed from being out with the chickens that he literally couldn't pee or poo. As soon as he relaxed, the urge was overwhelming.

Perhaps she just doesn't feel safe until she's with you?

poached she has a bed and a crate, in different both utterly and strictly out of bounds to everyone, I only wish she'd use them - she sleeps in the bed in the living room only if DH is there, and the crate only during thd night - if I am downstairs she is my stalker at all times, and if I go upstairs she stands at the stairgate and barks til I come down, which provokes a jumping about barking frenzy, thouvh this I am working on with training and seeing some improvement (essential as it really scares my.6 year old).

lougle maybe, thay does make sense. What do I do about it though? I guess stay outside with her as soon as come home from work... Unappealing at 10pm having only seen DH for a swift hand over, but perfectly possible and worth a try I guess.

She is clinging to you because of her lack of stability before. Baby steps. It can take some rescues months to settle in their new home. She is definitely not weeing to spite you. Dogs are totally incapable of feeling spite. It just isn't scientifically possible.

Have you heard of NILIF? It may be helpful to use this method for a while. Dogs which realise that interactions with their owner come at the owners discretion will seek attention less. Right now she clearly thinks barking for you,following you etc will be rewarded by attention. I think you need to ignore her unless she is calm and only initiate interactions then. This is difficult and counterintuitive but will help to reduce her stress and anxiety. I genuinely think much of this is down to her being homed, fostered and now rehomed. She's bound to be worried that you'll disappear. I'd bet that she shows stress behaviour when left alone too. It would be interesting to video her while you are out.

poached the attention seeking had occurred to me, though only because of course children (ESP neglected ones) also attention seek and prefer negative attention to none at all... Will try, though as I have smallchildren in the house all the time I just can't ignore some things... Should have waited a year til the youngest started Kindergarten, didn't occur to me a dog would need 1:1 but of course they do, too late now tbough!

If you can bear it, clicker training with her outside, combined with complete ignoring of any accidents inside. It will work.

Thanks lil I honestly hadn't a clue how hard this would be, given we were assured this dog was problem free aside from needing obedience training and needing to be kept on a lead as she'd take off after cats. Those are the least of our problems. I read too many stories of adult rescue dogs just slotting in as if they'd always been there, but this is hard on every member of the family ATM. :(

Ok lougle will try!

We have a rescue dog who after six years still wees in the house if anything changes.
He gets very stressed and anxious and I don't think he can help himself.
Even the smallest change like the milkman coming an hour early can trigger him.
If we have visitors or make a change to the normal routine we have to watch him like a hawk and pre-empt by reassuring him and taking him out a lot.

When we first had him he did have a severe bladder infection, and I've always wondered if he doesn't have 100% control when he is stressed.

If he is very tired he will also sometimes wee in the house, almost as if he were sleepwalking.

If its any consolation he is 100 times better than he was the first year we had him.

I haven't read the thread, I expect you got lots of "dogs don't think like that" along with some excellent advice (the advice will be excellent just ignore any dominance theory stuff which was debunked many years ago) however I just wanted to say, dogs do do this! Not many it's true but they do. My fathers dog is a cracker for it (she totally manipulates them in general though) her trick is to pee on the sofa! She only ever does it if she is sent down. She refuses, digs her paws in, growls, yelps then finally jumps off fast and runs out the room. Within a a few minutes she flies back in, squats and pees on the usual seat of the person who sent her down then flies back out of the room. It is a great big F YOU with her! So, don't count out deliberate action, dogs are capable of it.

In your case your dog is clearly insecure and that needs addressing, ideally with an excellent behaviourist. The work may well help the protest peeing as a by product and the behaviourist will help you with that too.

My dad solved it with their dog, they just don't ask her to get down anymore

Stress weeing/pooing is common. Our old boy does this quite often if he's had an encounter with a scary dog (he's very reactive, and we do BAT with him). Afterwards, he throws out a load of calming signals, lip lick, head turn, sniff, yawn etc. and will quite often have a little squirty poo or a quick wee. It's his way of relieving the stress. If he was stressed in the house, I'm sure he'd do that - this is deep seated stuff that over-rides basic house training.

She is still in the learning stages with housetraining though, on top of the stress issues, so this could continue for a while. Keep going with the basic housetraining routines, and accept that she will be a Velcro dog for a while. Like everyone says, baby steps, and remember this is the very early stages - this is a long process, but improvements will come.

Our first hound was petrified of men when he first arrived - wouldn't let DH touch his head at all, or come too close. Now he literally sits on him (hound on DH, not reverse!) looking adoring and soppy and demanding cuddles. All of ours would follow me everywhere at first (into the loo, v common) like a little troop of shadows - as they gradually relax and gain confidence, they are happier to ignore us, and not bother to follow.

One last point, keep as much as possible to a routine - this will help her to understand her day, it's shape and what's expected - we find this very helpful in settling new dogs.

More virtual gin heading to you.

everyone.

Any suggestions on the early morning barking - I come down and let her out to do her business, let her back in, switch the lights off, go back to bed... She just doesn't stop so I have all 3 of my children wide awake and (in 2 out of the 3 cases) grumpy and complaining and in one case demanding large quantities of breakfast by 5.30am This happens every day but is especially annoying on a Sunday...

A kong, stuffed with yummy sensitive tummy friendly things, frozen. After she has been for her morning wee, produce it from the freezer for her.

Mrtumbles i can completely sympathise. Although I now realise our rescue isn't as bad as yours! We got her from a foreign rescue as a stray at 3 months old. They told me she had a lovely character and was great with kids.
Obviously this turned out to be completely untrue when we got her. She bit my eldest dd (5yrs) growled at my 2 year old and hid away from my dh. Again, she followed me round constantly and whined when I went upstairs etc. i was at my wits end. Like you, I naively thought she would fit in fine and just be a dog! She's turned out to be more work than the kids. I was ready to give her up.

We've had her a year now and she has got loads better. She's definitely a reactive dog though and no matter what we do, she will always have a nervous and timid nature. ( still hates other dogs, new people, traffic etc)

Think carefully about how much time and money you want to commit to your dog. I know it sounds harsh but with dogs like this, progress is slow and new issues come up all the time. ( mine has now suddenly decided she hates wet grass and next doors dog so wees inside) it does always feels like there is something new to train her out of.

With two dcs, I find it very tough although I've bonded with her now so would find it hard to give her up at this stage. But as you haven't yet, you still could re home her to a quieter house.

Kong ordered lil - not sure what I'm going to put in it...

Imsosorryalan (what's the story of your username?? Intriguing :) ) I think yours must be worse - the one thing she isn't (touch wood multiple times) is aggressive, and the one group of living things she is generally tolerant of (due to simply not being very interested in or not regarding as important, I think) is small children. If she bit one of my DC unprovoked she would be gone - she's a dog, and a dog is not a child, its clear cut to me if it really is unprovoked - my 2 year old has to be watched like a hawk as he loves her (in truth he is the only one who does so far :( ) , but is 2 and keeps trying to grab her by her muzzle to "play" with her or pretend to ride on her like a horse! I doubt I'd emotionally forgive her enough to keep her if she bit him, esp if he was properly hurt, but I'd understand that it was likely to have been my toddler's fault (or obviously in truth mine really, if I left them together to allow it to happen)! If she properly bit my 6 or 8 year olds though she'd be gone, as they are both pretty mature and sensible and respectful towards her, and don't mistreat her in that affectionate but careless and dangerous toddler way - is your 5 year old OK? Was it a proper bite that caused injury or a nip?

I think she would have been better in a quieter household - I have 3 DC, toddler doesn't go to childcare (well he has just started a 2 hour playgroup two mornings a week), and all 3 kids and I are home from 1pm onwards, as well as the toddler and I in the mornings. The kids also have a lot of friends though the house - there are extra kids here most days, and I am in and out multiple times a day ferrying the kids to different places and doing stuff with them, as well as having to shut her in the house when we go to the playground right by the house - I tried leaving her in the garden, where she can see us, but it drove her nuts and she barked at full volume and ran up and down the fence the entire 45 mins. I tried taking her with me, but while she was perfectly happy to lie at my feet while I sat on a bench watching the kids, as soon as the 2 year old wanted me to push him on the swing she got between me and the swing and barked and barked... same deal with the see saw. Also dogs aren't technically allowed in there, and its very unfair on other kids and families when she is barking!

There is an older lady in our village (young retired I'd guess) she lives alone and I only know her because she walks her Jack Rustle mix 3 times a day and tries to engage everyone in conversation - she lives alone and the dog is her world. She told me hers is also a rescue from abroad (Spain) and she was keen to compare issues - lots of the same ones and more - but she clearly has so much time to devote to the dog, its really had a lucky break being homed with her, and the dog is clearly her lifeline in some ways too! I just can't devote as much focus to the dog nor give it the peaceful environment a retired, but still fit and active, lady living alone can! That kind of home might well be perfect for our dog - but how many homes like that are there? I suspect not enough for all the dogs who would be suited to them.

All a bit ho hum atm, but I'm grasping at the straw that she has improved (the barking and frenzies are not as bad as they were) and will continue to do so - I guess we can manage, as long as nothing worse comes up!

Thank you for posting Imsosorryalan it really helps to know somebody else has found it as hard - there were days the second week when I was crying and yelling alternately, and I am not the kind who does either much at all - DH has also pointed out I am swearing a lot more than I used to a month ago! It really is very hard - harder, as you say, than the kids in some ways - because everyone tells you constantly how hard kids are, so that when you actually have them you are surprised that generally its not that hard at all! Also the love you already have for your kids gets you through the years months of sleep deprivation and 5am get ups and tantrums and potty training etc. but I just had no idea at all that a rescue dog was going to be this hard, or that a toilet trained dog was going to be covering my floor in excrement (not her fault due to stomach issues we didn't know she had) and urine at regular intervals - a major reason for not getting a puppy and holding out for a house trained, child friendly adult dog, was not combining all that with a toddler!

A few things to help:-

1. You will progress so much quicker if you do use treats, what are you feeding her for her meals?

1. Ignore and prevent inappropriate behaviour eg do not let her be around DC when they have food.

1. Have her on a lead next to you and click and treat calm behaviour remove her from the room when she give crazy barking behaviour.

1. She is definitely not peeing to annoy you, no dog whatever anybody says is capable of such a thought process. I do not think she is housetrained, well she isn't is she if she is still weeing indoors. So back to basics, go out with her every time and reward her for weeing in the right place. Be prepared when visitors come and let her meet them outside or keep her away from them until she is more confident.

1. Tummy issues are hard to deal with but usually over time you can work out the triggers and it is easier to manage.

I am gutted by the rescue. However you sound like you have a clever little dog who is picking up general training quickly so she will pick up behaviour expectations just as quick.

DO not see her as a dog fighting against you because she is trying to tell you that life is moving to fast and she is way out of her depth and very very anxious.