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My lovely girl snapped at me today - what should I do now??

19 replies

Onwardsandsideways · 12/08/2013 23:10

I'm trying not to over-react but it really shook me up! Bit of background - she's a rescue, collie/spaniel cross whose been with us since October. She's a lovely dog, very happy & cuddly but has a tendency to want to do things her way & can be stubborn when the mood takes her, ie doesn't always come when called, 'demands' we throw her ball (by barking at us from the garden), pulls on the lead (although walks beautifully on a harness), that type of thing.

To make life more fun for her and us, I've just started trying to retrain her, with the aid of a (I thought) good book, which advocates giving your dog a command once and, if dog doesn't comply, going to dog and showing dog what its expected to do. So this morning, she's barking in the garden so I go to the door and give her the command 'indoors' (which she knows), she gave me the 'nope, not shifting' look so I went to her, held her collar and walked her indoors, all fine. Few minutes later she barks to go out so my DS lets her out (at this point I'm on the phone in a different room so couldn't stop him in time), then she's barking in the garden again (because she wants to play ball). I go through exactly the same as before, give her 'indoors' command and when she doesn't move, walk to her and go to take hold of her collar - and she growled and snapped at me! She didn't actually bite, but it was close enough to feel her hot breath - which is too close for comfort for my liking! I gave her a telling off and walked behind her and she went indoors, but it really shook me up, and DH & I agreed when we took her that, with 2 DS, any sign of aggression and she'd have to go - but now I feel really upset at the thought of rehoming her - what do I do now?

Sorry this is so long!

OP posts:
Lilcamper · 12/08/2013 23:18

You need to reward her for coming in! Not grab her by the collar. She isn't showing aggression but is protesting at being manhandled!

JumpingJackSprat · 12/08/2013 23:26

You need to consult a good behaviourist, preferably not one that believes in "showing the dog who is boss" like your book seems to recommend. if she had meant to bite you then she would have done. My sister has found clicker training extremely effective... ive even clicker trained my cat! You just need the right motivation. do you all spend enough time playing with her etc? Collie xs are very intelligent and need stimulation and lots of exercise or they get bored. being honest do you spend enough time with her?

have you thought about doing agility? Depending on your dcs ages they might be able to get involved but agility keeps the dog fit, burns energy, trains then and reinforces the bond with your dog.

Buttercup4 · 12/08/2013 23:30

Agree with lilhamper

Reward good behaviour and nip bad behaviour in the bud.

If she's a rescue she could have had a bad experience before and being pulled by her collar might have brought those memories to the surface hence the bad reaction.

She may have just been warning you hence the close snap but no contact.

Whilst I completely understand your need to protect DC from a potentially violent dog, you should keep in mind that a dog is an animal and you need to be patient with training. You have a duty of care for this animals welfare and passing on a violent dog to another home (if that's what you believe this is) is just passing the same situation onto someone else

ChippingInHopHopHop · 12/08/2013 23:30

It is threads like this that really make me miss Valhalla :( She would know exactly what to do.

That's not to diss what anyone else is saying.

I've heard both good and bad re clicker training - so on the fence with this.

I would say though, that being a rescue you presumably don't know too much about her life before you had her, but it's possible she was badly treat and you manhandling her like that is a bit of a 'trigger' for her. I wouldn't call it agressive though, just letting you know she doesn't like it, had she wanted to bite - she would have.

Onwardsandsideways · 12/08/2013 23:34

We're cross-threading - I've just replied to your post re. APDT trainers Grin. This is where a little knowledge becomes a dangerous thing - until now I've been rewarding bribing her when she's good with little treats, but 'the book' says not to, as giving a dog a treat breaks their concentration & they're not understanding what they've done that pleased you, & a well trained dog is happy enough to receive praise for obeying...

Please don't think I 'grabbed' her collar - I wouldn't dream of being physically rough with her - I just took hold of it and took a step towards the door, (don't think she even had to move) which was enough the first time to encourage her in Sad

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Onwardsandsideways · 12/08/2013 23:46

Thanks all; we do have her early history - she was with one family from 7 wks until last Summer & they provided a potted history to the rescue centre which we have a copy of, so we knew she had the usual collie issues (terrified of fireworks/loud bangs, can be wilful, ball obsessed, high energy etc), apparently they rehomed her because of children moving into the home who were allergic to her, so she had to go. She's an anxious girl, lots of lip-licking, yawning, but never growly at us, always gets off the sofa/bed when told to without any sign of grumpiness, which is why today was such a shock! Maybe she just likes being in charge Smile.

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willowisp · 13/08/2013 01:18

I don't know much about collies, but I have a rescue dog who also does the lip licking & is prone to bring anxious.

I think the last comment about her 'wanting to be in charge' suggests that you've been caught by the dominant net ?

Also have a think about you/your dc like to receive praise - think you've like a pay rise or is thanks & good job going to do it ? Do your homework & get a well done or 1/2 hr on iPad ? I know what works for me & having my DC teach 'down' in minutes with some treats shows me what works with my dog.

I throughly recommend Victoria Stillwell books & lots of kindness.

Fwiw I don't feel you have an aggressive dog, but one that would appreciate positive training.

I'm also out on clicker training - treats all the way here.

ChippingInHopHopHop · 13/08/2013 01:26

I certainly didn't mean to imply (or do I mean infer?) that you were in anyway rough. It can be 'triggering' for them to just be 'touched' in a specific area - though from what you have said/know, it seems like she has had a good life (but you never know if it's the truth or not, do you? One can only hope it is - for her sake).

Maybe try checking tomorrow that she doesn't have a sore spot?

I prefer the many & constant rewards system to your new book. Collies are bright - she will know exactly why she's being rewarded if you do it immediately. I'm not liking the sound of your new book at all. Look at it objectively - you know she knows what 'indoors' means, so why would you need to 'show' her, it's not a 'new' thing?! Rewards all the way for immediate good behaviour, nothing for slow but compliant behaviour and a cross tone and no reward when she doesn't do what you know she understands is the way I'd handle it.

Scuttlebutter · 13/08/2013 12:52

A couple of points. As our dog trainer constantly reminds us, dog's don't speak English. You saying "Indoors" won't mean anything to her. And dogs are never deliberately wilful - they don't have the emotional equipment for that. Dogs respond to what works - so you give a clear cue, dog understands that if this happens, a reward happens (this can be food, treats, toys etc - you need to find what works for your dog).

You should NEVER manhandle or even drag a dog by its neck - If you need to move the dog, simply clip the lead on and encourage her to walk into the house, nicely to heel on the lead.

I'd strongly recommend going to dog training classes with a good, APDT trainer - they will put the basics in place for you, including lead walking and from there you can work on developing more advanced training - a collie could really enjoy agility, HTM, or lots of other activities.

Personally, I've found clicker training has brought on our dog training by light years. I did the KC GC awards, up to Gold level without clicker, and have been working with a clicker based trainer over the past year, and it's transformed our progress. So much easier and more fun. I also know several people who are working to great effect on clicker training their horses.

mistlethrush · 13/08/2013 13:06

I would have thought clicker training for a collie would be perfect - the click tells them when they've done something right (you can click on the actual sit rather than treat afterwards) and you start off giving treats each time - but these reduce gradually and they won't expect a treat on every click in time.

Collie crosses can be a lot of work - we had one that would bring different toys to us in turn in the evening (specifically looking for a particular toy and going past other ones) to try to get us to play. We ended up getting a 2nd dog and the two would play for hours on end together which really helped! However, you clearly need her to be able to amuse herself at times. Have you thought of a treatball and putting some of her food in that? What about a puzzle thing to get food out of? Frozen kong with yoghurt and kibble or peanut butter or similar in it? Bone from the butchers in the summer?

And then there is the youtube video of a daschund loading its own ball shooting toy.... Grin

Booboostoo · 13/08/2013 13:48

To be honest it sounds like you are relying on the world's stupidiest dog training book.

Do yourself a favour and sign up to a good training class that uses positive reward methods. You won't be bribing your dog (the concept does not apply to animals) you will be rewarding desirable behaviour in order to reinforce it.

poachedeggs · 13/08/2013 17:58

Agree, the book sounds like nonsense. Try Pamela Dennison's book 'Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training'. It's very helpful and non-confrontational.

That's where you went wrong. You wanted her inside. She didn't want to go in. Instead of making her want to, you imposed your will. The secret to harmony is making the dog want what you want. It just so happens that the best incentives are food ones (mostly because food is a powerful driver as it is essential for survival). For a ball-mad Collie you may find a toy as effective though.

idirdog · 13/08/2013 19:42

I have a houseful of collies and have done for many years more than I am willing to admit to Smile.

Can I first reassure you that your collie is not an aggressive dog. If she had wanted to bite you she would have done. Collies can and do air snap when they feel frightened and unsure - but that does not mean they will bite you or your child. However it is important that you relook at your training methods and work out a better way to show your dog what is the correct behaviour you require.

Collies are the most fantastic dogs, they are clever intuitive and love to be told what to do. They will work for you until they collapse if you let them.

Collies will always do what they are asked if it is rewarding to them. So in the situation you were in dog in the garden and wanting to play ball just go and throw the ball into the house. The dog will be playing ball by coming into the house and you are happy because the dog is indoors win win! Alternatively stand at the door and call the dog to you and play a game of tuggy when he come inside - she will soon learn inside is as much fun as outside. However she wanted something to do and knew that coming indoors would be the end of her fun so of course she was reluctant to come in.

Collies by their very nature have to make decisions. If they are herding sheep and the shepherd does not see the runaway sheep the collie will make the decision to collect the sheep himself. This is their job and they will continue to think for themselves unless you clearly show them what is their job.

I would not leave balls around because many collies would consider this fair game to herd and chase all day. Remove the balls and they will relax, however do ensure that the collie does get his ball fix daily!

I would throw away your book - which one is it?

Collies will literally do handstands if they are clicker trained and the more you do the quicker the dogs will learn.

I have an 8 month foster collie with my who has learnt in two days (using the clicker) to stack different size cups inside each other for example.

APDT trainers would help you train with a clicker - you would probably need only a few sessions to get the hang of it then just use your imagination.

You do not have to rehome her for this incident and it will never need happen again if you use positive training methods.

Some good books to use are:-

Don?t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryror
Clicking with Your Dog: Step-By-Step in Pictures by Peggy Tillman
Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor
The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison
Unlock Your Dogs Potential by Sarah Fisher
100 Ways to Train the Perfect Dog by Sarah Fisher and Marie Miller

Onwardsandsideways · 13/08/2013 22:38

Thanks Chipping, made me feel much better. She is the loveliest, friendliest, happiest dog I've ever met (currently laying on the sofa with me with her front paws wrapped round my leg Smile) who, whilst stubborn & wilful at times, has never shown any aggression to any of us - sometimes gets a bit antsy when the DC's are on our bed at the same time as her but that's understandable as they're noisy, bouncy & v close to her - which is why I was so shocked at her behaviour. I'm aware Jumping that collies need to be busy, which is one of the reasons I've started more training with her. We'd love to try agility/flyball but at the moment her recall isn't reliable enough to try it, and she will not drop her ball unless she wants to! Clicker training has crossed my mind - when I give her a command and click my fingers she seems to respond faster, but I've no idea how to go about it. She's a clever girl with an excellent memory (learnt the sound of the biscuit tin being opened very quickly) and understands a lot of commands - and when I called her in from the garden last night with "indoors" she came straight in, little moo! I was nervous today of handling her, especially putting her harness on to go out, but she reacted as normal by dropping her head right down and looking sad, so I still have all my fingers! Grin

OP posts:
Booboostoo · 14/08/2013 13:08

Please take your dog to a decent training class. No one can train their dog on their own, even very experienced owners like to train around other dogs (not least of all for the distractions) and make use of other people in the class (for teaching not to jump up, for familiarising the dog with other people, etc.). No one can train a dog from a book either. Books are great as a support to teaching but you can't just rely on a book. Someone has to teach you techniques, correct you when you get it wrong, observe the interaction between you and your dog, suggest adjustments to fit your dog's needs, etc.

Also, what you mention is not the point of the clicker. Briefly this is how the clicker works: clicker training is based on operant conditioning and the idea that behaviour that is rewarded tends to be repeated. So you select the behaviours you want and you reward them so that they are strengthened, you ignore or fail to reward the behaviours that you do not want and they are extinguished.

How to get the behaviour: dogs that are used to this training method offer behaviours until they hit upon the desired one, but for beginners you either lure the dog into the behaviour (use a piece of food on the nose and move upwards usually results in a sit), or you wait for the behaviour to occur naturally (puppies are usually too scared to move away from the owner in new environments so you reward their being near you as the beginnings of the recall), or you take advantage of the dog's natural curiosity (if you place your open palm next to a dog's nose they are likely to touch it which is the beginnings of targeting).

What do you do when you get the behaviour? You mark it with a click. The click sounds means "that's what I wanted, reward will follow". You then have time to give your reward which can be food, toys, freedom, etc.

What happens next? The dog is likely to repeat the behaviour you just rewarded, so you click and reward again.

What about commands: there is no point giving commands to a dog that does not understand them. It's like going up to a person who does not speak English and telling them to 'Sit'. No matter how often you repeat yourself, how loud you get, or how frustrated you get the non-English speaker is not going to suddenly and magically understand you.

So I never give commands? No, you give commands once you have an established behaviour. Once your dog sits reliably and quickly in all sorts of situations you start naming the behaviour as 'sit'. You get what you name so you only want to name 'sit' reliable sits otherwise you are teaching the dog NOT to sit when you say 'sit'.

The only exception to this is recall where you use a very high pitched voice to squeele excitedly "Dog's name, COME!".

What about unwanted behaviour? Ignore, distract, time out, or teach an incompatible behaviour (if the dog jumps up, click and treat when she has all 4 paws on the ground).

You have a very intelligent breed of dog, she will pick all this up really quickly, but you need to get some help asap because you also have a high energy intelligent dog that will get bored and frustrated easily.

Lilcamper · 14/08/2013 13:22

The way that the clicker was explained to me is to think about it as a camera, you click to 'capture' the exact moment a desired behaviour happens and then treat/reward within 3 seconds.

TheCunnyFunt · 14/08/2013 20:24

Look up Kiko pup on youtube, great videos, really helpful and informative. It's also really lovely to see the close bond between the trainer and her dogs.

ChippingInHopHopHop · 14/08/2013 21:05

I hope you are starting to regain your trust that you have a wonderful and not agressive dog. Try to let it go & move forward... enjoy your lovely girl :)

Onwardsandsideways · 15/08/2013 20:50

Thanks Chipping - wise words indeed!

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