Ahhh Dominance theory !!!!!

[pimmsgalore]

We have just moved house and I have had to find a new vets for pimmsdog and pimmspup. I took pimmspup in today for his second vaccination and the vet commented on how he has a very dominant character. I agreed that he does have character, is very nippy and apparently was a big bully to his sister in the rescue centre. Then said that we were yelping when he nipped, clicking and treating good behaviour and making him sit when he was jumping up/ biting legs of the the DC. It is hard work but we only got him on Saturday and now 5 days in he is getting a LOT better. The vet then told me that it was good that he had an experienced owner but I needed to feed him last, alpha roll him when he is biting, put him in his crate for timeout and generally let him know who is boss. She then said that DH and I are top dogs along with the 4DC then comes pimmsdog and then finally pimmspup.

I can't believe the vet was saying this, my old vet would be telling me to run a mile. The only saving grace is that I have learnt so much from you guys on here in the last year of having pimmsdog that I knew she was talking absolute b***ks. I am worried though that she is spouting this to people who will believe her

I am now worried as she recommended puppy socialisation classes to me and I am hoping that the classes are not of the same thought. They are the only ones around for at least 30 miles but are APDT recognised.

I got a similar thing off one of our vets with my puppy when he went for his first vacs. I went along to the trainer she recommended and I knew all was well when she sighed and asked which vet had said that!

The training classes I go to unfortunately quote dominance theory to people...I just ignore it. Well unless I'm sat beside them and then I chattily mention that that's quite old fashioned and recommend looking online at positive training sites.

I don't go to get tips to train, I can do that, I go so they'll train DD, lol, (she's 13 and if I tell her to do something she'll do the opposite out of sheer obstinance) and so that my idiotic puppy gets practise at paying attention even with other dogs around. (he's a bit obsessed with other dogs) Because he knows all the commands they're working on and I don't go asking for advice, I pretty much get left to it - which suits me fine.

So even if the classes are not ideal they can still work for you in my opinion.

Vets quite often have pretty rubbish behavioural advice IME.

Vets are not qualified in behaviour unless they go on to study it as a subject. You don't need to be a behaviourist to need a vet and vice versa. I personally would be looking for a new vet

to be not need.

Lilcamper I would be looking for a new vets apart from its the only one around, I think I will get my vacs and any treatment from her but laugh sweetly and ignore her advice. Just wish she hadn't said it in front of DD (12) who said "well if it stops him biting my legs so I can show them off in public again I will alpha roll him all day long" DS (10) who is a bit mouthy himself and was seething at what the vet and DD said, he wanted to alpha roll them both and ask them how they liked it

Hopefully we will get into puppy classes and they will be lovely positive reward ones and DD can come along and see how much nicer it is than being boss over them. Must agree though we will be going purely for the interaction with other puppies pimmspup is quick to learn and loves his clicker we already know sit, down, wait and roll over (think he may be brighter than pimmsdog he is picking it up very quickly)

It's incredibly disappointing that a vet would still be spouting that bollocks. I realise they don't specialise in behavioural issues but dominance was thoroughly and scientifically debunked a long time ago - it's not like you are suggesting some woo type crystal therapy. Moreover, they are often the "gateway" to behavioural advice or consultations, so it's reasonable to expect them to have at least a limited understanding of the key issues and concepts. For me, this would probably be enough to act as a red flag and I would seriously consider changing practices unless they were outstanding in other ways.

Fortunately if the puppy class is APDT then you should be in safe hands.

Speaking as a vet, please please phone or write to the practice manager with a complaint. Vets giving this sort of advice could be liable if the dog them bites the owner, so you'd be doing them a favour!

Including reference to the APBC, who have some excellent resources on their website, and possibly linking the press release re Cesar Millan's tour (I'll get you it in a second) would be helpful to back you up.

Vets have a responsibility to understand behaviour before they give advice on it.

This website is the creation of a number of very significant veterinary and animal welfare organisations, giving it credibility.

This study is important, recent and compelling.

I'd also suggest they purchase a copy of Life Skills for Puppies for their practice library. It is a newly published book, written by veterinary behaviourists, and contains the sort of advice vets should be giving to owners of puppies.

Poached I took your advice spoke to practice manager. It turns out it was a holiday cover (first time we have been since we moved here so I didn't realise) they have said they will tell her they advocate positive reward based training.

Phew panic over, it's the only vets for miles so I didn't really want to change.

Brilliant, well done you - hopefully one vet educated and great that you're reassured too :)

That's good news!

While I understand that vets are not behaviourists you would expect them to know the basics of animal behaviour especially for animals as common as dogs!

I used to have a dog who developped a respiratory allergy and needed to have an inhaller. He needed three puffs, twice a day for the rest of his life. The first time the vet took out the inhaller her and her student attempted to hold the dog in a headlock to force the inhaller over his nose!! Aside from the risk of getting bitten, let's say you manage to force the dog once, twice, three times, what happens the next time he sees the inhaller? How do you manage a lifetime of twice daily wrestling maches with the dog?!! I had to stop them both and show them how with a clicker I could get the dog to voluntarily place his muzzle in the inhaller within 3 repetitions.