Dog aggression and baby

[WorriedMummy2013]

I'm worried sick. I posted in parenting before I noticed this bit of the forum. Can anyone offer any suggestions on what I should do? Here's my original thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/1792652-Dog-aggression-what-do-I-do

I know D0oin does not need me to stand up for her but really IloveHistory D0oin is giving constructive advice, knowledgeable advice that the OP would be a fool not to consider.

I cannot see D0oin showing bad manners

Dog crates and stairgates are relatively inexpensive.

I've trained fear-aggressive dogs before and had babies before and managed to brush my hair (not all at the same time, obviously) Not everyone struggles to cope with day to day life and a newborn.

I had a puppy to train when I became a single mother to dd1. I coped just fine, clean teeth, brushed hair and all.

Wow, nice implications there that the op can barely take care of her baby, let alone her dog.

OP I'm sure with professional guidance you can choose the best course of action. You don't sound like you're incapable of doing a bit of training!

Obviously most of you are perfect in every way and can change a dangerous dog into a simpering pooch with one hand whilst changing a nappy with the other while a soufflé is in the oven.

As a vet, owner of two dogs (one of which is fear aggressive, like the OP 's dog) and mum to two young children I feel pretty well qualified to answer this one.

Your dog has been trying to tell you that it's scared of the baby. If you'd noticed the head turns, the whites of the eyes, the ears held back, the yawning, the moving away, the tight closed mouth, you'd have got the message. You didn't though, you thought it was fine. So when the scary baby arrived in his face suddenly, he had to step it up a notch and snap.

Two things to note - if he'd meant to bite the baby he'd have bitten the baby. The snap isn't a bite that missed, it's a snap. Secondly, because nobody listened to his first, subtle messages he's learned that he has to use the big guns to make sure the baby stays away - hence the snarling and baring of teeth. He's saying 'I'm terrified of it, keep it away from me I'll be left with no option but to use these '. He's acting defensively.

You can remedy this situation. You do this by getting help to recognise his subtle cues, teaching him that baby=good stuff, and giving him a sanctuary where the baby never ever goes. You need to develop hard rules to ensure your baby is safe. You need to buy a crate to keep the baby out of the dog's space and a stairgate to keep the dog out of the baby's space. You need commitment, and more commitment, because there is a high level of risk which you will need to be diligent about managing. But this is very, very treatable.

Having said all that, I would never hold it against you if you decided to rehome. You have a lot to learn and this isn't the easiest time to be learning it.

Not a lost cause but you need to do some serious thinking.

Incidentally, my fearful dog is now very bonded with my 5 year old and is starting to develop a relationship with my two year old.

Dooin has provided excellent and helpful advice. The OP hasn't said she can't cope with either the dog or parenthood - she wants to make sure the situation is being managed, and has sought advice. Helpful and constructive advice has been provided.

Sadly, whenever these sorts of threads pop up, loads of people come along and scream "Get Rid of the Snarling Beast!". Oddly, they are curiously quiet on any other aspect of dog training and behaviour.

Dooin is both a parent and an experienced dog handler, while Idirdog is a highly experienced dog professional who regularly provides calm and expert advice on a wide range of dog behavioural issues. As previously stated by several people, many people manage to happily combine parenthood and dog ownership, usually by following a few sensible precautions that have already been linked to. Really can't see any need for some of the rudeness on display, none of which is actually helping the OP.

You know what i love history you are the one who needs to learn some manners! Doin has simply pointed out that it is perfectly reasonable to help a dog accept a baby. I had nightmare PND, a bereavement and had to write up a PhD, i still managed with my boy. As doin said, its not about taking time out of your day to train, its about common sense and little things that you change to do. You don't TRAIN a dog to accept a baby, you help it not see the baby as a threat.

I see the op hasn't come back - who can blame her

OP, if you are reading and don't feel able to post feel free to PM any of the more supportive posters on thread. We will be able to help point you in the right direction

Good luck with it.

Thank you all for the input. Sorry I wasn't back sooner, baby is having a clingy day and I can't type one handed.

I did realise that the dog was scared of the baby before this incident and I do realise that it was a fear response and that he didn't 'miss', he didn't want to bite. It was a very unfortunate (and terrifying) incident brought on by someone not noticing where he was. She didn't ignore the dog's signals and put the baby near him on purpose. I'm asking for advice on how to manage the situation so that the dog doesn't feel so scared of the baby in the future.

I'm not in the UK so can't find a behaviourist through any of the links provided but I have taken that advice on board and have emailed the local dog club to ask if they know anyone who can help.

We have a crate but the dog hates it, so I don't think that will help. We also have a playpen fence thing which goes from wall to wall to split the room in 2, so we can keep them apart.

My gut tells me that the dog will be fine so long as contact with the baby is on his terms. Hopefully I can get some professional input to help him with this.

If you are abroad then the Pets Professional Guild is a good place to start finding help. Qualified professionals all over the world PPG

Make all encounters when the baby is around positive, so when baby is in the room throw food onto the floor. The dog will begin to associate baby with good things and think "every time baby appears I get food". Do not feed close to the baby just throw the food across the floor. (I would not feed him his normal meals from a bowl but give him all his food like this for a bit).

Then give him time out, put him behind the gate and let him chill out.

Obviously I cannot see the dogs body language so if this is too much for him take things much slower and get someone in another room to fed the dog if he is upset by the babies crying etc.

I think starting crate training right now would really help you and the dog. It's the toddling stage they find really tough, all those unpredictable wobbling movements. Having somewhere your dog can call his own, where the baby is never allowed to go, will be a boon.

Start by finding a quiet out of the way spot for it, and leave the crate door open always, line it with comfy bedding, and drop extra smelly treats in it. If your dog wanders past and realises there's a chunk of liver cake in there, he'll go and get it. Next time he'll possibly go back to check and find some more. Each time he goes in, great things happen. If you catch him in there, give more treats. Start putting a filled Kong in there when he goes in. Soon he'll start heading there regularly. Make it worth his while, start closing the door very briefly once he seems confident, and only if he's tired and occupied with a Kong. You will be surprised by how well many crate phobic dogs learn to love it.

Get rid of the dog.

really helpful advice there badvoc

Ok. Keep the dog.
Put its welfare before that of a 12 week old baby.
Ffs.
I simply don't understand these threads at all.
How many times on the news do we hear of dogs turning on and mauling people?
Having been bitten badly by a family dog myself I have zero tolerance for this type of situation (and I was 19 so after the wound healed and bruising went it wasn't too bad, but I was lucky, it could have severed a vein)

Dear God they're multiplying. Make it stop Honey [hides behind Honey]

I can't add much to what poachedeggs and idirdog have posted OP, but well done you for acting in both the baby and dogs interest.

I am sure with the right advise and some careful management things will work out.

Now if you'll excuse me I am off to preach to all the ferret owners because one almost killed me when I was a teen, so they must all be dangerous. I don't know much about ferret behavior, but I've met one so I am qualified to comment, no?

I think you should rehome the dog to someone with no children or older children if possible.

if it was just the snap, i wouldn't necessarily but all the rest of it, I think its way too much of a risk to take with your babies life.

ive had dogs and babies and its never gone any further than a growl when they started crawling, which the dog got in trouble for, and never did again.
A family dog needs to be reliable and bombproof or its like leaving a loaded gun around.

I can't make it stop Dooin.

But I can Post this

More children are killed by their parents than dogs - lets get rid of parents

OP echo what Dooin says if you want to pm feel free also runs to hide behind Honey

Honey

On your conscience be it, when the little dog bites the baby. Shame on you

Baby sleeping with a loaded gun

Baby carrying a loaded gun

Children acting as loaded gun stand

The first two are rescues

The third one is the one who when he first arrived, as a former stray, would snarl at the children as soon as they approached him. As you can see, this only became worse with time, he now dominates them completely

Seriously OP, time, patience, careful management and all will be well with the world. Forget the scare mongering. Slippers kill more people than dogs each year, as do balloons, ladders and playground equipment.

You know you are sensible enough and able enough to manage this situation without danger to the child or dog.

And just think of all the fun your child will have romping around the beach/woods/park with the dog once they're older and used to each other. Well worth the effort, imo.

No dog is bomb proof. All families with dogs and children should be taking these precautions anyway.

Supervision, a sanctuary for the dog, strict rules for the children - this should happen in every home with kids and dogs.

The dogs which bite 'out of the blue' tend to be those who have had to endure children climbing on them, pulling their ears, dressing them up or carrying them around. You know, the ones Bran might call bomb proof.

One day they are sore or ill or they've just had enough of the abuse and they bite 'out of the blue'. Everyone is shocked except the behaviourist.

Teach your children to handle dogs sympathetically and tactfully. Demonstrate respect for them. Read their cues, understand and act on their body language (it's their only language, after all) and give them space.

Having unrealistic expectations of 'bomb proof' dogs is a major factor in bite incidents.

How bloody big do you lot think I am?

Dogs and humans big and small have been co existing for thousands of years. A good dog, one that is good a reading people's body language, for what is what they do, will do its absolute very best to warn and communicate it is distressed and frightened.

The op states that the dog was unduly stressed by human error. Even when very stressed the did DID NOT bite. It warned, and would warn again.

This is because it knows the warning works.

Punish a dog for growl, snapping etc, then you get the incidents you read in the paper where " the lovely family dog just turned out of no where". No. The lovely the dog has been systematically abused over years, treated as a plaything and each time it has voiced discomfert, beenpunished for it.

Dogs are social, gregarious and like humans, although fuck knows why, we don't deserve them. They work on appeasement and are not going to do stuff that jeapordises food, warmth and comfort on tap.

A behaviourist will be able to help the op read the dog much earlier and make it more comfortable sooner. The dog can be shown that the baby is a positive in the house that means good things will happen. The op does not want to rehome her dog, because the op knows her go and believes with a little work they can continue to coexist in harmony, and so do I.

Total cross post with poached there.