Fear/ insecurity and a downright miserable dog

[topbannana]

Following on a bit from the dominant dog thread I wonder if anyone has any advice please :)
GingerDog is a 5 yr old entire working cocker. DH We got him at 16 weeks from a most unpleasant man who I strongly suspect would have shot him otherwise as he was due to go on holiday
GingerDog has always been "weird", behaviour I now suspect stems from his early life. I have always described him as sly, a term I'm not sure whether is acceptable in dog circles, it's just how he is.
He will work and is a biddable beating companion. He is well trained but on many occasions will simply choose not to do as asked. A raised voice, manoeuvring to the correct position or any sign of displeasure causes him to hit the floor in a submissive way, swiftly replaced by gleeful running about, tail wagging etc. not really the behaviour of a dog who believed 10 seconds ago he was about to be beaten? (FWIW I am quite convinced he has been beaten/ kicked before we got him) He knows what to do, he just chooses not to do it (simple things like sitting at the kerb, not pushing through the door, dropping to a whistle) He is also "dominant" with other dogs as described in the other thread. He has been nipped at on so many occasions it must be down to him and the way he handles himself around other dogs, though he himself is non-aggressive. Mostly he completely ignores other dogs now, even the puppy.
Aside from that (and the thing that makes me saddest) is that he seems to have no joy in him. He is very jealous and will lay claim to DH or go to his crate. The outside world is viewed with baleful eyes and he never seems particularly happy unless out walking or when we arrive home (thrilled to see us then, just pissed off with us the rest of the time)
The strange thing is he really is a perfect pet, clean, quiet, can be taken anywhere, happy to be left alone- many people would kill for a dog like him. He just seems so disengaged with us I feel sorry for him. Any simple tips we could make a start on to try and make his life a bit happier would be great.
PS- sorry, that turned out to be a post of epic proportions :)

He sounds like a really lovely dog. My main suggestion relates to the training. 'He knows what to do, he just chooses not to do it' is a common thing people say; you have to make it worth his while. I suggest liver cake, hot dog, or cheese as rewards when he does the thing you ask, and ignoring it when he doesn't (no more raised voices).

Also, it can take longer than you think for dogs to learn something completely, especially if there are distractions around which make it really hard for him, even if it's a command he is used to in the house. You have to build up gradually around distractions. Again, the liver cake will come in handy.

It doesn't sound like he is a problem with other dogs? If he chooses to ignore them, that's up to him, I think. And I bet he isn't completely ignoring them - I bet he goes and sniffs their pee and marks over it.

You do mention gleeful running about, so he can't be sad all the time. Perhaps you have one of those almost-perfect, very calm dogs that is just hard to motivate?

I think perhaps I have redwing :o
I may have to resort to my faithful tube of squeezy cheese. He is a terrible nuisance for food as he just sniffs everything disdainfully with the air of one who has barely escaped poisoning on several occasions.
It's small things like crossing the main road through the village where he is always required to "wait" (I do not make him sit when it is cold or wet normally!) until told to cross. I am emphasising the "sit" to try and instil some manners in the pup so perhaps I am inadvertently pissing him off that way?!
We do split their walks, DH normally takes him, I take the pup and do a little training then we meet up and walk back. When one of us is at work the other walks both at once and we do longer family walks at the weekend.
I started to wonder whether the dog problem may be eased by castration? It's something we were intending to do anyway but once the pup had got over the worst of the bouncing and biting :)
Thanks for the advice anyway, our local dog whisperer type woman is a raving alcoholic quite erratic an the next closest one reversed into my car and drive off- sadly I was sat in it at the time so I strongly suspect we will not e welcome at her door :o

I don't think castration will help with fear aggression but may make him less dominant with other dogs. Apparently castrated dogs smell different and are less likely to cause aggressive tendencies in other dogs.
Castration may help him be less distracted though. I had my previous spaniel castrated as he was obsessively cocking his leg and it stopped that but he was still distracted by anything with legs, feathers or wheels when he was out!!

It's not that he gets involved in fights, more that he bustles up with his high neck and stiff tail before anything else. He will approach them "in their face" IYSWIM which I always think looks rude even if it isn't! I always guessed they lashed out as he was invading their personal space and they felt threatened.
I think I will go back to basics for a bit and make a real fuss of him. Perhaps I am wanting all my animals to share my sunny nature :o

I'm in no way an expert, however I have a 2 year old cocker spaniel (not working lines, but show) and my parents have a 7 year old working cocker.
They are sensitive creatures. Shouting at them will make them scared and then they will act like they are sorry - like you describe.

Dogs don't choose to disobey for the sake of it. They do something if they know they get something out of it, for instance treats or praise. My parents' dog is well trained (best grades in all tests and so on), but at home, she will see if she can grab something from the dining table or kitchen tables if we're looking the other way. If looking at her, she's just sitting there looking all cute and cuddly.

Both my dog and my parents' are very keen on being close to us. It's not jealousy, it's normal for spaniels. They are needy little ones and that's something that just comes with the breed.
They are however incredibly protective - and are supposed to be. They have to protect you and your things (for instance the game, your rifle and so on during and after a hunt) - but they make terrible watchdogs.
Our dog comes across as jealous when she's around big dogs that she doesn't know. It seems like it's down to trying to protect us rather than jealousy, as she will have no problem with the dogs when she knows them - and will not react to us giving them a treat or a scratch.

I can't tell you if castration will help - I've heard that more often than not it will have no effect whatsoever.

Other than the daily walks and training, what kind of mental exercise does he get at home? Maybe a Kong Wobbler or Kong Genius Leo would be nice for him?

Hi vibbe
He does sound like your dogs! I totally get that they are a completely unique breed of dog (I had working stringers before, you seem to know what you're getting with a springer!) which is partly what drew us to them initially.
I can relate to the needing to be close though I am constantly aggravated by him badgering for attention all the time (DH normally gives in )
I cannot say that we ever really shout at him, more a raised or stern voice. I may push his bottom down into a sit when he will not respond though we are careful not to be too rough due to his past experiences.
I think he may need more to do in the house to occupy his mind. TopPup has a Kong that he keeps trying to filch away, having never shown any interest in one in his life. I worry it may be a little too small so will try and get a regular size one when I go out.

Definately not sly and not deliberately not doing what he is asked.

He sounds very sensitive and extremely intelligent. A raised voice terrifies him, he knows what he is meant to do but is too upset to do it. He then is worried because he has not done it, hence the mad tail wagging and running about, this is to chill you out and to make you feel happier. All the time your dog is trying to calm you down and make you happier and then there will be no need for cross voices.

He sound undersocialised and is just unsure of how to meet dogs, I would encourage interactions with calm dogs to give him confidence.

Dashing out now but if you do want more information on taking any of this forward I will post later. This type of dog is sooooooo easy to train once you are both on the same wave length

He is no dominant nor is he willful.

idirdog that would be fantastic, yes please :)
After reading things on here I know he is not dominant. As you say he is very easy to train- in quiet times we have learnt tricks such as high five, shooting him so he drops down dead and getting him to fetch a tissue when I sneeze :o I also started agility with him in an effort to get him to listen to and focus on me which he picked up soooo quickly. Unfortunately I had to change my shifts at work so we can no longer go.
The lack of socialisation is an issue. As I said we got him at 16 weeks. By this age TopPup will have spent 8 weeks going anywhere and everywhere with us and is (to date) at 14 weeks completely bombproof. For such a sensitive soul the lack of early socialisation has been crippling and it really underlines the importance of it.
I will wait for any advice you may have, thanks again :)

Castration could make things worse so I would not consider that yet for behavioural reasons anyway.

He sounds like a typical spaniel who loves to be busy and have a job to do but equally does sound a little insecure.

Clicker training is the way to go. Not only is clicker training very easy and dogs learn quicker it give dogs loads of confidence. The dog does not get told off if they are wrong so they are willing to try harder to get things right. Then the dogs confidence grows and you have a happy hard working motivated pet.

Try to aim for a weekly new trick to learn, this could be teaching heel work or working on waits or could be a more traditional trick as you have already done.

Re the lack of socialisation it does sound as if he is unsure of what to do on introductions. So at the moment keep meeting and greeting short and sweet. 2 secs is enough. So walk up to calm dogs you already know, one sniff etc and move on. If he can begin to manage this without stiff tail then continue. If he has the stiff tail then back track and try counter conditioning. When he can see a dog make everything around him fantastic, give him food, play a game whatever he likes then move on. As he can feel relaxed around dogs you can then move to the 2 sec meet and greet. Also some dogs just do not like to bundle in and play with other dogs, some are sociable some prefer their own company or their owners company.

How does he "lay claim to DH"?
How does he show that he is " just pissed off with us the rest of the time"?

Thank you idirdog
We have used the clicker in the past, though its not something I use regularly (no idea why as, with the exception of one dog, all mine have always taken to it really well )
He will sit clamped by DHs legs, head lifted to be stroked. Will not tolerate anyone else (puppy, cat or human) after attention. He's not nasty, simply standing up, pushing his way in or presenting toys to DH, anything to stop DHs attention wavering from him. He is much better with me when DH is at work but I have no real problem with him having a special attachment- Lord knows DH has put up with it with me and other dogs :)
He seems pissed off with us if not given the attention he is after. I will not tolerate the constant badgering so will tell him to lie down. He goes to his cage (this would be "bed") and ignores me after that, only returning if I make a huge squeaky OTT fuss. Similarly in the day he will not follow me about (never has done) preferring to stay in the other room in his cage. All my other dogs have sat in whatever room I am in, just content to be near me. If I am not fussing him and him alone he retreats.
Reading this all back I think we are definitely on different wavelengths. He does not respond to any of my efforts to jolly him along which have never failed me in the past perhaps because I have never owned a dog like him before (mine have always been more robust characters, I seem to attract them somehow :o)

Meant to say as well that we want to have him castrated before he is in the age group for increased risk of testicular cancer so not necessarily too soon.
He is very much an unmanly dog and is no problem around bitches or with bolshy behaviour, it would simply be from a health perspective.

Probably the reason he stays clamped to DH is that he has learnt that you ask him to go away (which is also what I would do!)

I am pretty sure he is aware that you are a bit on edge around him, so he tries to calm you down by badgering you etc. You then tell him to go to his bed so he does as he is being told, this probably makes you relax a bit. Then he is less likely to return to ask you for attention again because removing himself from you caused you to relax.

I am not saying what you are doing is wrong at all, I would do exactly the same, I am just trying to let you see it from his point of view.

I would give him specific times when you give him 100% 5 mins etc . Clicker session etc. Then ask him to chill in his crate, it is good that he does this.

I would not worry that he is chilling in his crate it is his way of relaxing.

Re castration I do always castrate my dogs for ethical and health reasons but sometimes may delay this due to their temperament.

idirdog funnily enough we have just spent 5 minutes messing round with the clicker while Land Shark had his Kong in the kitchen. We then played "find the toy" a particular speciality of ours as I have trained and worked search dogs- ALL my dogs are brilliant and methodical at "find the toy" :o Now the two of them are shredding a cereal box all over my floor!
He seems happier and is trotting from room to room looking quite cheerful. I will try and make an effort to spend a little time every day just with him- he gets a separate walk with DH most days but it is just a walk as I have the Land Shark. Perhaps a couple times a week we can swop over and I can make his walks more stimulating.
Will also hold off castration for a while, he is entire as it is supposed to give them more working drive and as I said before, aside from the health risks, he is no hassle at all as an entire male.

idirdog has given some great advice and you sound pretty clued up. Im just a bit unclear as to what you want from this dog, maybe he feels the same?

The submissive behaviour, followed by the gleefulness sounds more like he is desperately trying to please or protect himself, if that makes sense. He does sound very insecure and i suppose that is where the dog/dog "aggression" and dominance comes from. Maybe he will settle more now due to the pup. Saying that my bastard JRT1 has become more aggressive with other dogs since we have got JRT2

Does it bother you that he seems to favour DH? is it a problem? if so could DH not do anything with him for a while? no feeding/training/walking, just you? I have no idea if that would work but it would certainly be worth a try.

Hi LEM
TBH when I read this thread back I realise my ideas about what I am hoping for from him are a bit garbled
Really I want to see him happy, engaged in things and enjoying being part of our family. It pains me to see him as an almost perfect pet dog (which he is) while he can seem so disengaged with us. In all honesty all my previous working dogs have been pretty full on and needed constant reminders to calm down, I suppose I should be grateful really :o
As for him favouring DH I have no issues whatsoever (he was really DHs dog anyway) It is easier for us to work a dog that is closely bonded with us and while we have always been able to swop dogs or work them as a brace (DH still having counselling from the last time he did :o) it is no issue to have favourites. As I said DH has endured the tyranny of BlackDog for many years without complaint so this is small payback!
We also noticed a noticeable deterioration in the way he interacts with other dogs since BlackDog was PTS. She mothered him and could always be relied on to stick up for her spaniel babies if the need arose so I think he probably missed the security of knowing she was behind him. He has improved since the pup has arrived, simply because he was very fretful as an only dog and now he isn't.