what can we do about aggression in our black lab

[Nellymay]

Hi we have a four year old black lab - he's the soppiest most loveable dog going except with certain dogs where he can get really aggressive and virtually floors them, especially smaller dogs and staffie types and nippy dogs.

Hes always been a bit of an alpha male dog, pushes our other 11 year old lab out the way and tries to be 1st for everything. He's done kennel club training up to bronze and excelled at it and is very biddable EXCEPT where certain dogs are concerned - some of his aggressive behaviour is to do with protecting our other dog and he will "see another dog off" if they go near him, and protecting us, but some of it is pure domination/top dog stuff. He will happily play like a lunatic puppy with other dogs, usually his own size or breed.
We try to keep him on the lead but he's a big strong dog.

Any suggestions for what we can do to stop this aggression getting us into big trouble welcome

Has he been neutered?

Yes, he's neutered Choude

Maybe ask your vet?

Yes i think we will, also speak to the dog trainer he did his training with :)

Hi Nellymay,

I think it might help him to learn that he's not the alpha-male dog .... you are!!! It's not his job to protect your other dog .... it's your job!!! He's not the dominant dog/top dog .... you are!!!

That all sounds very flippant, but I've found it all to be very true, and rectifying it to be fairly simple repetitive stuff.

Just to give you a few ideas .....

Meal times ... he's last, after absolutely everybody and - not only that - but you have a good old rummage in his bowl first (just in case there is a delectable morsel you want to keep for yourself). Then when you've finished rummaging you (almost) toss it down, offhand, turning away, without making eye contact. You're done with it ... you don't want it ... (okay, I know I sound silly) ... as alpha dog, YOU have eaten your fill, now he - the SUBMISSIVE dog - can have what's left.
When someone comes to the door, if he rushes forward (either to raise the alarm OR to greet them) put him in another room BEFORE you open the door. He's the submissive dog ... it's not his place to guard/greet strangers to the territory - it's your place.
Once the visitor is in your home, spend a couple of minutes with them, before allowing your dog into the room. When you do let him back in, do it in an off-hand manner, without speaking to him or making eye contact. Tell your visitors that they must not speak to him, make eye contact with him, or make a fuss of him (though they can and should speak/look at/make a fuss of you) ... not to punish him ... he simply isn't high enough up the pack pecking order to be acknowledged in this way.

..... oh, there is loads of this stuff, all passed on to me by a trainer, and I really found that it worked!!!! If you'd like to try it, then I'll have a think and try and remember all the points I was taught and tried!

Good luck with your dog!

Oh dear ,the dreaded pack and dominance theory raises its ugly head ! Your dog is not trying to be alpha male or dominate you !

Sorry forgot to say either speak to your trainer or preferably a behaviourist who will help you deal with his issues, in the mean time only let him off lead with dogs you know he's ok with ,otherwise keep him on a long line .

Ignore anyone who talks of being the pack leader or dominating the dog all a load of bollocks and will increase any aggresion 10 fold.

Internet forums are a dangerous place to ask for dog behavioural advice. I am absolutely amazed at the ridiculous and downright cruel and inapprorpriate advice given out.

This behaviour is common, you need a QUALIFIED dog professional to look at your dogs body language and help you with a treatment plan. They will suggest something like BAT or look dog to give your dog confidence and take away the need for his to act defensively.

Best place to start is APDT usually this sort of behaviour is within most of their brief. If not APBC will help

APDT

APBC

This is behaviour that can be improved and many times totally altered.

Hi Floralnomad,

I disagree. I think if a dog has "always been a bit of an alpha male dog, pushes our other 11 year old lab out the way" and is already trying to protect it's pack/family in that "some of his aggressive behaviour is to do with protecting our other dog and he will "see another dog off" if they go near him, and protecting us", then it is accepting responsibility of that family and ... in my experiences ... this can decrease confidence, increase anxiety, and can lead to things such as aggression with some other dogs.

Taking away that responsibility ... again, in my experiences ... can solve the problem, however I do not think that being the 'pack leader' means you have to ever overtly 'dominate' your dog, nor do I think you should behave in a cruel manner. Nor do I think any of the examples suggest behaving in a cruel manner. Ignoring your dog for a few minutes, or even putting him in another room for a few minutes, is not cruel.

What I would agree with is a using a qualified dog professional. I did, got the above advice (plus lots more) and it worked wonders in a very short space of time.

I am not planning on getting into an argument to discuss out of date training methods or why they are pointless. If you are interested on why they are ridiclous and outdated below are just a few books to clarify the point.

Books to read to enlighten those that are interested:-

Dominance in Dogs: Fact or Fiction? by Barry Eaton (small but vital book - easy and
interesting)
In Defence of Dogs - Why Dogs Need Our Understanding by John Bradshaw
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Oh Behave by Jean Donaldson
Dominance Theory and Dogs by James O'Heare
Bonding With Your Dog by Victoria Schade
The Other End of the Leash: Why we do what we do around dogs by Patricia
McConnell
Dogs are from Neptune by Jean Donaldson
100 Silliest Things People Say About Dogs by Alexandra Semyonova

OP I hope you can get an qualified APDT member to help you out.

sleeton I don't actually think I used the word cruel in my post and will just refer you back to idirdogs posts ,which seem to cover my point quite nicely , thank you

Floralnomad, no indeed you did not. I am sorry for inferring you did. I must have skimmed back over the posts too quickly.

idirdog, no ... nor do I plan to get into any argumentative discussion with anyone. I can and did only speak of what worked very well and very quickly for me. In fact, I now only have one pet dog (now old, sweet natured and spoilt ... he is the one that went through an aggressive phase many years ago), my others are working dogs and are very laid back ... maybe they don't have the time to be anything else!

Nellymay, have you managed to find someone to help with your lab? I'd love to hear how it works out?

Great reading list, idirdog

Nelly, I agree with idirdog. You will find it easiest to resolve this with the help of a good trainer or behaviourist. Some insurance policies (not all) will cover behavioural help so it's worth checking the fine print of your policy.

Glad it's not just me!

My five year old black lab is also nasty to small dogs. She was attacked three times by terriers when she was a puppy, but when she got bigger she saw our older dog see off a staffie and something clicked ;)

I now keep her on the lead if there is any iffy dog (she's very certain about the kind of breeds she goes for) and make her sit when they go past which distracts her from growling etc. To be fair she's often not too bad unless they exhibit aggression which is when she goes really berserk.

I did talk to a dog trainer who said much of this behaviour is lead by fear. She advised that any small dog is a trigger for anxiety given her experiences and if I gave her a treat when she saw a small dog then the association would become pleasant. She said on no account should there be punishment as then the negative association is being reinforced.

Does your dog have a reason behind his behaviour like mine does? Might give you a clue as to the best approach.

I've also noticed my dog is protective too. If we're walking with my 4yo son she is far worse. That's understandable really given the fact that she's feels these small dogs are a potential threat. Amusingly she doesn't do it at all with my husband walking her - think she either doesn't give too hoots about him (highly probable, she's my dog really) or thinks he's big enough/ugly enough to defend himself...

hi everyone, thanks for your advice - it certainly gives us food for thought - we are keeping him on the lead if we see any of his potential "triggers" and also keeping doggy biscuits in my hand to distract him if he tries to get aggressive and to reward him for NOT getting aggressive with another dog - he's a labrador after all and they love their food :)

Vintagei think your lab and mine are similar - he also got scared when he was a pup by a family of jack russells that live on a farm near us and they roam around in a pack and went for him and had him yelping - i don't know why its with some Staffies and and bulldogs tho' perhaps he senses aggression in them - not that staffies and bulldogs = aggression, just some with the wrong owners IYSWIM.