12 week old puppy has just growled and 'gone for' 10mo ds

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He crawled past him and put his had on his paw..

I don't know what to do :(

We have done tonnes of positive reinforcement. Is it still early days? I'm actually distraught..

He growled and snapped - that was doggie speak for 'don't tread on my foot'. If he was a nasty vicious dog he'd have taken a lump out of your child with no warning.

Now revise the idealised notion you have of puppies and toddlers playing happily together, and accept that young dogs (especially collies) are going to be nervous and uncertain around something as noisy and unpredictable as a young child. Keep them apart ALL the time. I know it is inconvenient, but that's life.

I have two collies, adults, well socialised around people - I would NEVER EVER leave either within snapping distance of a 10 month old, even for a second. They are a working breed, they herd, and snap, that's innate to their character.

Thank you panic. We have been told completely different advice by the dog trainer

We were told to keep treating the dog when baby touches and never aloe baby to tug etc on pups fur ..

Aw, he probably just needs some more time out. Just give him 10 minutes every couple of hours, give him a treat when he's in his crate, so he knows he's not being punished.

Baby is now tucked up. DP has gone to work and ddog is asleep on my feet.

I love him lots. I feel like a complete let down

Really? I'd use that method for something like getting the dog used to the noise of a vacuum cleaner, but not a baby. Utter madness...

V young kids are unpredictable and noisy. The dog needs to get used to this, so absolutely have them in the same room, but safely separated. Collies are also a v nervous breed (yours may not be, but a large percentage are). One of mine leaps three feet in the air if you touch his tail. They are not a great breed round v small kids (fine with older ones). No reason why they can't grow up together, but use common sense. Once your LO can throw a ball they'll be best buddies.

You are not a let down!!!! I resorted to sitting down in the middle of the kitchen floor and crying when dog1 was about 14 weeks. He was a total nutter, hyper, snappy, impossible to house train..... they are babies at that age, and have lots of learning and growing up to do.

I salute you for doing the puppy thing and baby thing at the same time

Thanks panic. We are really Woking with him. When he's finished his puppy classes we're starting him with fly ball and agility. Thats why we decided on a collie. That and I grew up with 2 :)

Try not to let this one incident upset you op. we have a five month lab puppy a 5 yr old dd a 3 yr old ds and an 8 month old ds so I don't think you are too mad!!! I have my hands full and looking back I would not get a puppy when kids so young but the situation is what it is and pippin ( pup) is part of our family now so no going back. I disagree with post saying to keep your baby and puppy apart. You must always be present when together but pup needs to understand that baby comes above it in the pecking order and will not be caged in a play pen all day. Our lab chooses to lie next to our baby and happily lets him pull her ears etc.. And goes a sits next to him when he cries! Our pup has never even mouthed any of our kids as we made it clear from the outset that it wasn't acceptable by putting her onto her back and saying no. She has growled at the three year old over her food bowl but I worked with them both and it's never happened again. I would spend sometime crawling around on the floor to get your pup used to having eye contact at that level and the way you move. Good luck and it sounds as if you have started training classes so do what they advise they are the experts!

FFS. This thread is bordering on madness.

A 12 week old puppy is utterly incapable of going for anyone or anything. It has only been alive for 12 weeks; it hasn't the first clue how to behave yet. It certainly mustn't be crated all day.

Puppies play, and playing involves teeth and blood curdling noises and growls, especially if they're playing together. They are one of the finest examples of learning through play - their games teach them bite inhibition (google Ian Dunbar and bite inhibition), doggy manners and good behaviour.

Unfortunately, your pup picked the wrong person to try and play with. There may also have been an element of shock at being hurt; it is entirely possible your very young puppy hasn't felt pain before.

Don't leave the two of them together unsupervised, neither of them can possibly have a clue how to behave well together. Teach the puppy what it can and can't do in your home. A firm no when things are wrong, and a happy praise when things are right should be all it takes. Also bear in mind that collies are bred to snap; it is an instinct bred through them to enable them to do the job they are designed for. Not the end of the world, and certainly doesn't make them vicious but it needs remembering.

Don't make a big deal out of it, the dog is bright and will pick up on your worry but won't have any idea why you're concerned or what is going on. It is very likely to become nervous/unsure/confused about how to behave as a result.

Ignore all reference to pecking order and pack theory; it is very outdated and often plain wrong advice. I am distressed at the thought of someone turning a puppy onto its back to teach them anything at all. C Milan has a great deal to answer for. I am very glad he is not welcome in this country.

When we turned our lab pup onto her back she used to think "wahey belly rubs". We probably didn't do it right. Saying that in her whole 15 years of life she never bit anyone, maybe belly rubs is the way forward?

We didn't bother with any of this alpha male nonsense. Never have done, with any of our dogs.

OP listen to Daisy, she knows what she is talking about.

mrsmarzipan, we have a puppy who would let the kids sit by him and pull his ears. He was always very patient with them. He would seek them out for love and games. He never growled or snapped. Until the day he did. That's when he came to live with us. It took us lots of hotdogs and lots of work to get the pup to trust anyone near his ears (very important in case of the need of future vet care). Please stop your children abusing your puppy before he ends up as another statistic.

I do not allow my kids to abuse our puppy and don't think an 8 month old baby would know how to and resent the assumption that I would allow this . Our pup goes to puppy training classes were we we're advised to squirt lemon juice into its mouth for doing something she shouldn't. I think that's cruel and prefer to use the method advised by Bruce fogal a veterinary expert in training dogs who advises that putting the dog onto its back is exactly what it's mother would do. There are a lot of differing ideas on how to train dogs and we all follow the one we feel comfortable with. I only posted on her to try and reassure the poster that having a baby and a puppy is hard work and there will be set backs but to try and not panic. Clearly a dog and children need supervision but they make great family pets and you can not keep everyone apart otherwise what is the point in having a dog?

Never heard of Bruce Fogal. Ian Dunbar is highly regarded by most people in the doggy training world. As is Jean Donaldson. I would look there for training tips.

Try The Culture Clash (Donaldson) and In Defence of Dogs (John Bradshaw) or How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks (Dunbar). Dunbar also has puppy book and Gwen Baily's Perfect Puppy is thought to be a must have for the new puppy owner.

Alpha rolls (rolling a dog onto it's back) are outdated and based on theory from the 1930's and 40's by a man named Rudolph Schenkel, who studied captive wolves. Schenkel himself as since admitted that his theory is wrong and should be disregarded when training pet dogs. Nursing bitches do not perform alpha rolls on their puppies as a form of discipline. Nor do wolves for that matter, but wolves don't really come into since I would guess that your puppy is of the canine variety.

More modern trainers focus on positive, reward based training.

I don't think you need to keep your puppy apart from your children but the children (even 8 month old babies) should not be allowed to pull the puppy'e ears i.e abuse it. Any dog, no matter how patient could snap at a child under those conditions. For the sake of your children please stop them from doing this, even the baby. Just watch them together and remove the baby to a place of safety every time she/he tries to hurt the dog.

All this alpha, leader of the pack, dogs knowing their place baffles me.
I have never done this and I have 3 DCs, currently 2 dogs and a foster dog and no one has ever been bitten except me but that's another story

I think anyone with a dog and a small child needs to make sure their DCs are not allowed to abuse the dog. And I know you think it's playing and the dogs ok with it but still...I wouldn't advise letting your Dc pull the dogs ears, tail etc.
I don't think you need to seperate them, just understand that your dog might not really be in the mood to have his ears pulled and therefore it's best to avoid that behaviour altogether.

After rereading your post mrsmarzipan (sorry if it feels like I am picking on you, it is not my intention, I just do not want OP or any other new puppy owner reading your advise and trying it with possibly disastrous consequences) dogs find direct eye contact intimidating and aggressive. Well socialised dogs should not stare each other out or eye each other up.

I would not crawl around at eye level with a dog, unless I wanted to try and goad it into biting me. It's akin to someone walking up to another person and squaring up to them - aggression begets aggression.

Your human baby is tiny. We found having a baby cage brilliant when the dcs were babies. At least then you can deal with one thing at a time and everyone is safe. It's so important to keep everyone safe and for the children to learn to respect animals. It must have been very shocking for you, and your pup probably got a terrible fright as well.

Blimey, mrsmarzipan, your trainer sounds pretty grim.

Can you not find another one? One who uses up to date techniques and is recognised by the ADPT?

Dare I say someone who knows what they're doing? Lemon juice in the mouth (and I know you aren't doing it) is just awful. A sure fire way of making a dog wary of people and touch, opening the door to a snap or bite caused by fear.

I'm not trying to critisise you mrsm but I have never seen a mother dog roll a pup onto its back, never. And I have seen a lot of litters.

I have never once seen our labrador roll any of her six puppies onto their backs except to clean up their wee when they were very tiny. She disciplines them with a low growl and then walks away and ignores them. By going somewhere they cannot follow her. Then she goes to sleep and we have to entertain the disappointed puppy...

Honestly, no baby or toddler should be crawling around with any puppy or dog. I am sorry, but dogs play using their mouths, and we are not equipped to interact in that way! Please keep them separate, OP.

alpha male is shite.

the leaders of packs are the Mummy-bitches.

they groom, cajole, and play their way into control of the pack.

they don't dominate a dog they don't like (they will kill it if forced to do so)

the leader of my Mums dogs is mother to one, grandmother to another - though they are bigger, they obey, because she is the one who maintains order. But by grooming, play and being there, by ignoring a dog looking to confront her and getting them to accept her kisses and licks.

Puppies want lots of praise, clear direction and lots of time to sleep, whilst being watched out for. a crate gives them the last thing - you do the first bit, not by being on the same level, but by being above them, being a good mummy that shows them what to do and rewards them for it.

"
they don't dominate a dog they don't like (they will kill it if forced to do so)"

i will add, this would be a very rare event, a dog will do everything to avoid having to do this.

Just to clarify again the baby is not allowed to pull the puppy's ears or fur and is very closely supervised. I only put it in the post to demonstrate that my baby is erratic and has pulled the dogs ear ( they were instantly separated) but it hasn't put the puppy off seeking him out and being so gentle and loving towards him. She is adored by all in the family and is so gentle towards the kids but I do not take it for granted that she would never snap. I am clearly not as read up as some but whatever training we have done seems to have worked for our dog as she is beautifully behaved and a happy little doggy! Bruce fogal is apparently according to his book the number one best selling vet author

As other people have said, ignore any references to alpha rolling or pack leader bullshit. it wont help you understand your dog, and your puppy learns through mouthing things. I would say it was a warning this time, keep the baby and the puppy seperated (crate the puppy or put the baby in a playpen) if they cannot be closely supervised together (not saying you're negligent, but if you're busy doing something else).

I don't know if you're considering it, and can't think how it will help in this instance but clicker training gets amazing results with my (thick) dog in agility training, so might be worth considering when you start training your pup!

your puppy was reacting to having his paw 'trod' on. unfortunately he can't speak human, so he couldn't say Ouch, that hurt!

Never leave your child alone with the puppy.

When my son started cruising the furniture he pulled himself up in front of our dog. I was in the room as well, he still has the scar on his head.

The dog was rehomed on the proviso that he would never go anywhere near young children. He is with an older couple who absolutely adore him.

I've got this idea in my head that dogs don't really like their feet being touched; they see it as threatening. I could be talking crap and got muddled up Im sure there are many experts in the doghouse who know loads more than I do. Isn't all part of the puppy socialisation thing like opening their mouths etc? But your dog does have to happy for its feet to be touched by you and strangers for the kennel club good citizen award so maybe Im not imagining it!

our family dogs have never liked their feet being touched and they try to move their feet away / move away from you

our trainer explained that a dog's feet are very very important to them.... so their natural inclination is to protect them and not to welcome them being held or touched... hence the need to accustom puppies to having feet gently checked and handled.