Dog aggression/food aggression help please

[Lougle]

Sorry, this is so long, but please do read it, so that I can sort my dog out.

Dogs:
Westie - Neutered 10 year old male Quite nervous disposition (Unofficial Rescue, had since 2½ years)
Staffy X - Entire 9 month old male. Quite nervous disposition (had since 7 weeks)

2 months ago, I had been feeding my dogs dry food, and they were eating happily, although the Staffy (7 months at that time) tried to snaffle the Westie's food. So I fed them separately, but they'd wait nicely together.

Then, I switched to Raw feeding, and the Staffy had a big go at the Westie. Advice was to feed separately, which I did.

Last month, we had visitors, and one of the children spilt some cake crumbs on the floor. The staff was sat next to me on the sofa, and the Westie wandered past the cake crumbs (nobody had noticed them at that point). Suddenly, the Staffy went for the Westie, from the sofa. Yelping from the Westie, and the result was a small cut on the ear.

The Westie has always been a bit shy, and since then has seemed reluctant to eat unless he is shut away. So I feed him in the porch. I normally put their kibble in a bowl, call both dogs, then put the Staffy's down to him. Once he is eating, the Westie is willing to walk past him to the porch, and I shut him in.

Last night, I called the Westie, and the Staffy was waiting for his dinner, much like any other night. Eventually the Westie appeared, but by then I was holding both bowls in one hand. I think the Staffy must have thought I was going to give both bowls to the Westie, because he attacked the Westie.

It wasn't just a 'putting in place'. It was an attack. He flew across the kitchen and pounced on the Westie. Full snarling, shaking him by the neck, continued growling while the Westie cried and pooed himself I tried yelling, I tried everything. I even kicked the Staffy gently, to try and distract him I was desperate - I thought he was going to kill him. He wasn't even there, if you know what I mean. DH came down and grabbed the Staffy's collar, but when he tried to lift him away, he actually lifted the Staffy and the Westie because the Staffy had such a hold on him. Fortunately, my head cleared and I remembered someone saying about sticks at the back of the jaw. I grabbed a bannister spindle (diy) and gently pushed it into his jaw. He let go, I got the other dog out into the garden, and then DH let him go. He was panting furiously, but looked completely dazed. Like he'd woken up from a dream.

The Westie was actually not badly harmed. Lots of saliva on him, and there was blood, but some was from the Staffy's head (the Westie had managed to nip him) and I think the other was from the Westie's mouth, where he must have bitten onto the Staffy's buckle on his collar.

They socialised cautiously after that. The Staffy sniffed the area where he'd grabbed the Westie. The Westie was withdrawn, but polite. They happily sat in the car together today while we went into a shop, and they enjoyed a walk together.

Tonight though, I fed the Westie before letting the Staffy in from the garden. The Staffy had finished his dinner long before the Westie had. Once I opened the door of the porch, to let the Westie out into the garden, the Staffy approached in a friendly manner, but it seemed that as soon as he smelled the Westie's breath and realised he'd eaten, it set him off again. He started to nip him on the back of the neck and was going to have a go at him, but I was able (after doing lots of reading last night on appropriate responses to dog fighting) to keep my voice low but firm and called him away, with a 'don't you dare' added.

I don't want this to escalate. But obviously the Staffy is starting to have real issues with food. Incidently, he's fabulously submissive with people, and is very submissive to the Westie if he puts him in his place generally. I can take food from him freely (for instance, I forgot to add his antibiotic one day, and took his food away to crush the antibiotic into it, and he was fine), and he sits and waits for my command before eating his food.

Hopeful bump

I think you probably need a professional to help you assess the situation and come up with an action plan. Could your vet recommend a good behaviourist in your area?

Meanwhile when the Staffy displays unwanted behaviour if you can do so safely pick him up and put him in an empty room by himself for a few minutes. Don't speak, don't react in any way. Let him out a few minutes later and continue as normal. If you can't safely pick him up, take everyone else and leave the room...I appreciate all this may be tough to do though if he is physically attached to the Westie.

Thank you for answering, Boooostoo. I think we will have to try and get a behavioural assessment. They're very expensive though, aren't they? It will be a struggle.

It's a small suggestion but maybe if they were both neutered they would also be on more of an even footing? Perhaps feed at the same time but so they can't get to each other but can see they are eating?
Also u said this happened when u changed their diet maybe change back if the behaviour to the westie is so bad. Maybe keep staff on a long line after food so u can snap him out of the rage before he gets to westie? Or attach him to u so he's with u and can't go for westie as soon as he's eaten?

Not sure if any of that is helpful!

Bless you, that's really worrying! I can't imagine how that must have felt. A young staffie is quite an adjustment if you've been used to the temperment of a neutered, mature westie! It might help if you could get him enrolled in training class? If his responsiveness to you improves, it will help to head off situations before they escalate. But I'm sure someone will be along who has dealt with similar issues.

Thank you, it was awful. We changed back to kibble about two Weeks after starting raw because the westie got colitis, and the reaction of the staffy to raw food seemed too high.

He is just so food orientated that I wonder if the 'breeder' ever fed him. I know staffys are known as dustbins though.

He is usually very responsive to me. I can tell him where to put his nose, he sits at the roadside and waits to cross the road, he sits at the door before we go for a walk, his lead walking is improving all the time, he sits nicely if I stop to talk to someone (but then chews his lead if I take too long, admittedly), he doesn't bark when next doors dog goes crazy at him from the other side of the hedge...the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I know that list is all stuff a well trained dog should do, and it's by no means remarkable, but I'm just saying that he is quite biddable.

But, to give an example of how food orientated he is: he loves clicker training. It means food. I don't even use real food for that. I use coachies chicken rabbit and lamb. They are tiny. But yesterday, we were working on 'give', and once he realised that the treat came when he released the ball from his mouth, he refused to pick up the ball, and just touched it with his nose, then stared at the clicker, waiting for his treat! Almost like he couldn't see the point of picking up the ball if he was going to get a treat for dropping it.

Did u give him the treat when he wouldn't pick up the ball? Sounds like hes trying his luck- typical teenager!

Have u thought if neutering him?
If he's so food will he not be drawn away from the westie with some food based games while westie eats in peace? Or give him his dinner in a treat ball so he has to push it around and get one biscuit out at a time keeping him busy and focused while westie gets some time to eat?

I'd do a few things if I were you.
Definitely look into a behaviourist who can give professional advice. Also speak to your vet about neutering, your staffy is getting to be a teenager and maybe will be vying for top spot from the westie.
Lastly, I'm no expert on clicker training but do use it with my dogs. Once the initial connection of clicker = food is made the clicker itself becomes the reward and is only followed with a food reward occasionally. This may help his concentration, or it may not but it works for my ridgebacks.

I will phone the vet today and ask for him to be neutered. Great idea about the treat ball. I might get the tug a jug.

I'm actually registered with the PDSA but haven't cancelled my Petplan cover out of paranoia, so I'm probably covered by that for the behaviourist? I'll check it out.

Clicker training. I thought that I'd read that you always treat if you click, and that it's the clicks that become less frequent. Have I got that backwards?

Ok, so he has a health check on Tuesday, and will be booked in for neutering after that. It's a start.

What happens if you take the staffys food from him when he has started eating?

Please seek the advice of an APBC behaviourist before getting him neutered. Confident dogs do not behave in this way and as you mention he is nervous, it's possible that neutering could worsen the behaviour. Neutering removes/reduces testosterone, which while this is the hormone that can make dogs more reactive it also makes them brave, so if a dog is showing fear aggression, neutering can make them more fearful, hence more aggressive. I say this particularly as you've mentioned he's nervous and as you've previously mentioned aggression towards other dogs.

I would also strongly advise not trying to pick him up at all, especially if he's reacting to something at the time, he may well bite you in the heat of the moment not even being fully aware he is doing so.

The 'fight' you mention doesn't sound too serious if neither dog needed to see the vet. Even a 9 month old staff could do considerable damage to a westie if it wanted to. Fights between dogs are mostly ritualistic and they can sound absolutely awful, very scary for owners, but if they really mean it there would be serious injuries, especially where the dogs aren't evenly matched.

In the meantime, I wouldn't allow the dogs to be anywhere that food is. When you feed them seperate them before you feed them or even get the food out. Put the westie in a room first, shut the door, then put the staff on another room, then go and get the food and feed them in their seperate rooms. I would reinforce sitting and waiting for their meals too, it encourages good manners and teaches them to listen to you. I hate to say it, but expecting the westie to walk past a food aggressive staff that is eating is asking for trouble. The staff will have been anticipating the westie walking past and been anxious around feeding times.

And I wouldn't try taking his food away either. He'll probably be fine but you don't want to put him in the position where he feels he needs to bite. I would just leave him alone to eat until you've had professional behaviour advice.

topknob he's absolutely fine if I remove food, although I don't do it routinely - I wouldn't expect to have my food removed mid-eating.

He does sit beautifully for his food, and will wait for it until I give the OK, even if I leave the area - ie. he will wait until I have stepped out of the porch and shut the stairgate and said 'good boy'. When I say 'good boy' he knows he's allowed to eat the food.

midori you are so right about expecting the Westie to walk past. In hindsight, it was silly. At the time, the Staffy really hadn't shown more than a little jealousy, and it seemed that it was the Westie who had the problem - he was nervy and refused to walk past the Staffy unless he was busy when it was meal time. So the solution seemed to be to reassure him by putting the Staffy's food down, then he was quite happy to trot through to the porch.

The fight? I don't know. It seemed serious. I was surprised there was only a little blood and no obvious injuries on either side. The Staffy definitely wasn't letting go - when DH tried to lift the Staffy away from the Westie, he ended up with both of them in the air, because the Staffy didn't let go. The Westie actually defecated, so he definitely thought he was in big trouble, too. The Staffy was shaking the Westie like a rag.

On the other hand, I said to DH that surely if he'd wanted to kill him or really harm him he would have done, because the Staffy is 1½ times the weight and size of the Westie.

I did wonder about the testosterone thing. Thanks for the advice.

I don't understand it, really. The Staffy is so incredibly gentle. Even if he gets a bit rough in play with me, as soon as I say 'Patch, no teeth!' he opens his jaw and lifts his head away from my arm. He really is quite obedient.

He's not confident though. He shys away from people at first if they approach, but with a wagging tail, and then goes in for a stroke. Dogs similarly. He approaches but he has his tail firmly down, and often jumps back if they sniff him unexpectedly.

He's never been aggressive with any other dogs, except barking and growling when the small terrier type dog tried to attack him the other day. In fact, in general, he's the complete opposite. He wouldn't pass another dog on a bridge a few weeks ago - he was too afraid.

Midori, I know you do this stuff for a living. You don't happen to know a good behaviourist in the Hampshire area, do you?

See thats good, if you can take it away. I hope the vet can help.

Also check the protein level on your dog food, the lower the better for pet house dogs, can help with anxiousness. or Dorwest Herbs Scullcap and Valerian work like Kalms in humans and do not make your dog drowsy.

Wow..I've always been trying to find the highest protein food I can. So lower protein is better?

I'm quite reassured today that it is only an issue with food.

I took the dogs out for a walk with DH. They were fine on lead, fine off lead, the Westie chased the Staffy round the field in play, growling, pouncing etc, as they normally do - big grins and excitement.

We met my SIL by chance, who has a similar aged lab x rescue dog, who is also a bit nervous, and whilst they were mutually cautious and respectful, all 3 dogs ran round the field together, with no hint of aggression from any dog.

I can't tell you how relieved I am to find that it's (apparently) just food that is the issue. Much easier to deal with, because it's a twice per day affair.

Clicker training. I thought that I'd read that you always treat if you click, and that it's the clicks that become less frequent. Have I got that backwards?
Yep. The click is clearer & more accurate way of marking the good behaviour. I can really recommend the book "Click to calm, healing the dog aggressive dog'" . It really clearly explains how clicker training works and how to use it when you have these kind of issues.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look it up.

Ok, so while I sort other stuff out, I've done the following:

Feed both dogs in seperate porches. Make sure I'm next to Puppy while I let Westie out. As soon as there's any hint of a 'grumble' about the food he's just eaten, I give the Puppy eye contact and say 'enough' or 'don't you dare' or whatever.

First day, he still went for him mildly but stopped by the time they reached the top of the stairs, and then came down.

Second day, he went up the stairs after him, but stopped half-way up and turned around.

Today, he sighed, and followed me.

So, progress.

We took them for a walk along a railway line today, and met a lady with an adult staff, which seemed friendly. We took them off lead, but the female adult staff decided a chase was in order. She chased Patch hell for leather up the railway line. He outran her, but his response was 'yelping' as he ran, looking back at us, and then turned to run back to us. No agression, no barking, no growling. He obviously thought he was done for, but he didn't show any signs of trying to get in there first.

His recall, I have to say, was excellent . The other lady seemed a bit shocked though, and admitted she hadn't had her dog long.

How is it all going now, did you change the food and has it it made a difference?

Hi Kay, thanks for asking

I haven't changed his food, because we'd already switched back to kibble. I'll look at lower protein foods once this bag is through.

We have been careful to separate the dogs when feeding, and everything has calmed down. He still would have a little go at Alex immediately after feeding if we let him, but I supervise and make clear that it's not on.

He's also showing a little jealousy around walk time when we're getting leads on. He gets jealous if we put Alex's lead on first, and either nibbles his neck (literally, rather than a euphemism!) or reverses his backside up to him so that we can't get to his collar . Again, I'm using firm instruction and continuing to lead them randomly, so he doesn't get stuck in any one order.

Once out on the walk, they're fine, and no aggression, jealousy, etc.

Scrap that

I let the dogs in to day, and the older dog wandered into the area that the younger dog has his food in, near the dog bowl, when the room was in darknesss.

The younger dog attacked him again. Although, again, no real injuries - the Westie is completely unharmed, the Staffy has a cut on his nose. But we had to physically separate them again, and DH had to hold back the Staffy so that the Westie could run upstairs.

I have the number of a behaviourist, so will call them in the morning.

It's so confusing though, because he looks dazed afterwards, and he's just been allowed upstairs (1 hour after the incident) and when he saw the Westie, he gingerly approached, sniffed his neck, and when the Westie gave a low grumble, he backed away completely and looked sheepish.

He knows the Westie is topdog, except for this issue with food

A click is ALWAYS followed by a treat.

Once a behaviour is learned, the click can be replaced by a variable rate of reward to keep them guessing but if you click, then you treat. Even if you've got it wrong and clicked at the wrong time or for the wrong thing.