5mth old puppy perfect...but has '5 minute madness' with awful nipping/barking on walks

[spudballoo]

I have a 5mth old male labradoodle, bought from a very very well regarded small breeder. I have no concerns about his background, I've met his mother/grandmother and great grandmother and am in touch with perhaps 30 or so of his step silbings and his father. He's a standard labradoodle, mostly poodle (over 70%).

He's lovely and very easy around the house. He was housetrained, completely, from the day we brought him home at 8 weeks ... not one accident, day or night, in the house. He sleeps from 10pm to 7am without a peep. He doesn't chew anything he shouldn't, he doesn't mouth or nip in the house (though he did for a week or two at first), he eats what we give him but doesn't beg for food. He's on Burns mini-bites. if we leave things around (especially soft things like socks/cardis he will take them, but then just sits with them and doesn't destroy them). He's our only (and first) dog. we have two cats who keep out of his way. He's not aggressive towards them.

He's a great watch dog, barks when he hears anyone/thing coming towards the house but is all tail wagging and friendly.

so far so perfect?

I started training him when he was 10 weeks old, and had a trainer come to the house once a week to do reward based training with him. He's smart and he very, very quickly had sit/stay/down/watch etc. And just about then he started being overly 'assertive' with me on walks.

We are surrounded by acres of private farmland, and that is where is is walked about 50% of the time. He's great off lead, and has been from the beginning, never going out of eye sight. But a few weeks after I started walking him, he started to get very assertive (I can't call it aggresive) with me. He will suddently return to me and, tail wagging, start to circle me while barking and growling. Shouting 'no' ramped him up further, the only thing that worked was getting him back on the lead and even that would result in the bucking bronco effect with him snapping/growling at me (always tail wagging).

Eventually, about 8 weeks ago, I spoke to his breeder. She advised me to stop all reward based training and to totally ignore him for a few days, and she asked for him to go back to her to be looked at and to be back in the pack with his mum/grandmum/great grandmum. I did this, actually just stopping the training and treats sorted him out but he want back for 2 nights anyway. She was totallly happy that there's nothing amiss and that he's not aggressive in any way. He doesn't guard food or toys.

But he's started up again with the circling/snapping/nipping/barking at me and it's getting worse. The best thing to do is to ignore him but it's getting harder because his 'nips' really hurt and they bruise my legs, and he frightens my children when he does it to me. He only ever does it to me, and I am him main carer. I do 99% of his walks/care.

I can no longer catch him to get him back on the lead, he sees that as part of the game and will circle me faster and faster, barking louder and louder. Tonight (walking him alone) I calmed him in about 30 seconds by calming staring at him and putting my hand in front of his head and saying 'calm'. he lay down, I put the lead on him and he was fine after that. Two days ago, on a beach with the children, he barked and growled at me for 5 minutes with me ignoring him before he gave up and I got a lead on him. I was afraid, to be honest, and the children weren't happy.

What on earth do I do? Keep him on a lead until I'm certain this has gone? Seems the most obvious solution. I'm confident he's not aggressive, but I'm starting to dread walking him because it nearly always involves him having a go at me and I come back feeling miserable.

I've waited all my life for a dog and I love him, we all do. And he's so briliant and funny and easy. Apart from these horrid 'mad' 5 minutes and his teeth now really, really hurt.

Sorry, long. bit lost to know what to do, he's going back to his breeder to board for 2 weeks soon while we are away. But I know that's not 'the answer'.

Thanks in advance for anyone who read this far.

It's normal puppy behaviour - it's called puppy five minutes in my house. Does he tear about madly with his tail between his legs for absolutely no reason as well?

I deal with it by turning my back every time I get charged at, definitely not shouting (that's fun, you're joining in the barking), and ignoring. Treat immediately he is calm.

I have yet to find a way of avoiding this phase, but keeping him well exercised physically and mentally so he is tired might help.

Things I forgot: his recall is good, he is great with other dogs...v sociable and friendly but 'gets it' when he's told off or a dog doesn't want to play.

Our puppy does this too; I think it's what she does when she wants to play. She does it to our older dog (who only joins in when she's interested) and to me. I've noticed that on walks she only does it for about the first ten minutes and then she's worn out enough to walk/run normally. It's always at it's worst on our first walk of the day, puppy really harasses our older dog and it's very noisy and frustrating. I've found it helpful to take puppy out on her own first or take her in the garden for a bit of frisbee before walking...it reminds of a crazy horse I used to ride that had to be lunged before anyone could get on her back--diffuses some of the extra energy. It is getting better and I've found that teaching her "heel" and "look at me" has been really helpful as it gets her to focus on me as we walk along.

Yes it's definitely 'play' related. His tail is wagging. he doesn't do it in the house, though he did before he was old enough to go for walks. Ignoring is definintely the best policy as any kind of shouting just ramps him up and it becomes a conversation.

I was happy to ignore, but his teeth are nasty now. I have huge bruises on my thighs and he's drawn blood too.

He is walked for about an hour a day. doesn't make any differnce when/how long he is walked, thought it generally strikes after he's worn off his initial exuberance and if he thinks he's on his way back home. i try to get him back on the lead before then.

he hasn't 'got' fetch yet and I've been warned off teaching him to retrieve constantly as he has lab in him, and the constant twisting/turning isn't good for their hips or so I'm told.

But perhaps I need to suck that up because I can't go on like this. I love him so much but I am beginning to hate walking him and can't have my children afraid of him out and about, when they adore him the rest of the time.

Thank you for your advice!

Our pup does this too, she's a 17 week old chocolate Labrador. I believe it's completely normal (have read this on here, our trainer has said as much, and the Gundog trainer we're going to be using says the same) - not that it helps. The growling can be quite scary, and as you say, their teeth hurt!

We just ignore, turn our back on her and walk away. I think once this stops, we get to look forward to it all happening again in a few months time. The joys of a lab huh?

I would teach him to play with a tuggy and only use it when recalling him at the end of the walk. Then any bouncy behaviour would be directed towards the tuggy. You are also then in a position to teach an "end" command eg stop playing and back to sensible behaviour.

So call the dog run away with the tuggy he will bounce towards you give him one end of the tuggy to pull etc (so as not to nip and bite you) have a good vigourous game - them place a yummy treat near his nose and ask him to give, end whatever command you want.

Do not ever chase him to catch him, that will be the best game ever. If he does not come on the recall run away from him he will come back to you very quickly.

PS One hour exercise is quite a lot for a 5mth doodle - is this split over two walks?

It is normal behaviour. He is trying to make you play with him in puppy language.

It isn't acceptable, but it is quite normal.

Avoid winding him up any further by shouting or teaching an alternative playing tactic is a very good strategy.

He sounds a bit over excited and hyper on walks. A hour a day is a lot of walking for a dog of his age. It should be more towards the half hour ish. While it looks as though he needs more and more exercise, And I have no doubt he will take it; he actually needs less so he is better able to cope with the overwhelming excitement of a walk.

There is also a small testosterone surge at his age which will affect his behaviour a little.

This will pass. I agree with stopping food based rewards as they're likely to wind him up even more. It would also be a good idea to increase his training to stretch his brain and start to teach him steadiness. You mention a gundog trainer - book him in for an hour there and I have no doubt it will improve.

See if you can find videos of dogs playing with each other - especially young ones. You've described it to a tee, but it will probably help you to see it in context.

This is where a second dog comes in handy as they direct the play at each other, and an older dog will put a stop to it very effectively with a grumpy old man reaction when they've had enough. Can you walk him with a doggy friend occasionally?

this is all so helpful and interesting. I do walk him with a friend with an 'old boy' spaniel who doesn't take any nonsense from my young upstart. Intersestingly my puppy doesn't ever have a go at me during those walks.

He has met a lot of other dogs/puppies and plays with them, and I know how rough it gets (all in good humour) and I know that's what he's trying to do with me.

His walks are split 2-3 times a day, it's about an hour in total. But I take it on board that perhaps I should pull it back so he's really eager for the walk rather than eager to play with me.

I'm really struggling with the treat/no treat issue. He's a very clever dog, he's mostly poodle but that also means he has a pushy streak. I just don't know whether training him to have a tuggy game which ends with a treat means he'll learn that 'barky/nippy' means a treat in the end?

I haven't used a gundog trainer, I think that was a previous poster. Would that be a good idea? I liked our puppy trainer but, looking back, she was quite young and realatively inexperienced and didn't have any tips when this behaviour started. I know it's just play, but he is on the pushy side in terms of personality and I think I need a little help re-directing it. Or perhaps I need another, older dog to put him in his place

thank you everyone. All views and suggestions are so appreciated. I really don't want to dread walking my lovely pup.

My puppy used to do this, around the same age.

We focused all the excess energy into play, mainly his very special kong Wubba.

That sounds quite a lot of walking- maybe try only doing 30 mins but make it a 'training' walk. So do 5 minute wandering along, then call back to you for a few sits and downs, waits or whatever. Then send off to run about, call back for a game. Tire his little brain out!

Walking should be 5 minutes per month; so at 3 months 15 minutes, 4 months 20 mins, 5 months 25 mins etc. An hour, even split over 3 walks, IMO is way too much.

Like a child, they get very over tired and very overstimulated and you end up with poor behaviour as a result.

And I must have been confused about the trainers - but I do think further training would be very helpful. Try the kennel club good citizen award to start with; see their website for details.