Hungarian vizsla - which breeder? Advice please ...

[Fuddymunster]

We are getting a family pet and have decided to get a vizsla. We've not bought a pedigree before but have found two local breeders and are undecided which to go with. We've visited both to meet their dogs and don't have any main concerns, lovely dogs etc

One breeder's dog is their family pet. They liked us as a family and we can have first choice on which puppy. I think they have bred their dog three times in three years. Dew claws removed.

The other breeder's dog is a working vizsla. We are not first on that waiting list and have been told that buyers wanting to work the dogs are a priority. Ours would just be a family pet. They would also help choose which puppy. Breeder would very much like us to visit several times and to be in touch during the first year. Dew claws intact.

I know it probably doesn't matter too much who we go with but does anything stand out? For example I'm not sure whether we should choose a puppy with the dew claws removed or not.

Thanks!

Years ago we were looking to get a Vizsla. We traped around all over the place, looking into the breed, meeting breeders and going to beauty contests. Eventually we got onto a 2nd hand Vizsla breed list. In the meantime we spent time looking at rescue dogs, me thinking we would take home a familiar gundoggy dog. In the event we came home with a border collie! Our 2nd collie came home with us a year later and was a bit of a handful. Soon after that we recieved a call from the 2nd hand viszla person. Sadly we were unable to take on a 3rd hound at the time. Now we have a house full of collie things.

What are the reasons for having dew claws removed? If a working dog has no need for the removal of part of their anatomy, surely no other dog should need the same procedure?

The two main differences are between show dogs and working dogs. They are bred for different things. They can both be fantastic, but will need a slightly different attitude towards training. A pet dog will need to be trained just as much as a working dog, but if you find dogs' abilities exciting and you are happy to work with them, a working line could be an option. The second breeder sounds more responsible to me.

You could have a look here

RCVS Advice Note no 16 on dewclaw removal here - useful background reading. Personally, I can't see the need for it.

If you are dead set on getting a pup from a breeder, you should never choose purely on the basis of geographical location.

I'd be concerned about three litters from the same bitch in three years - how old is the bitch?

Second breeder sounds far more responsible.

Have you discussed health testing with them? Hip dysplasia records, myositis (Sp?)

What does the first breeder do with their dogs, if they are not working? Viszlas are highly intelligent and need a lot of exercise - are they doing field trials, obedience, cani X? If not, I'd be concerned that they are simply churning out pups to make money.

Are both registered breeders? How do both look after bitches when they have finished their breeding life?

Yes there is a Hungarian Viszla breed rescue. We were in no position to take on another dog when it became available, sadly. I don't have details for it, but I'm sure it's easy enough to find.

Found something...www.vizsla.org.uk/vizrescue.htm I don't know if this is the only place. There may be more information out there!

You might find this helpful too, if you haven't already seen it hungarianvizsla.org.uk/you.html

Option one is no family pet if she's been bred three times in three years! I also can see no justification in removing dew claws. There is more to that set up than meets the eye.

Option two sounds a far better bet to me, especially as they are keen to maintain a relationship with you and the puppy after you've handed over the cash. That's a really good sign. Do you know what sort of working bred dog the parents are? Have you seen copies of their pedigrees? It is important to find out so you have an idea what sort of adult dog your potential puppy is likely to be. Have a look at the 5 generation pedigree and see if there are any affixes before any of the names in it.

Thanks so much everyone for all your replies. It's very helpful. I'll have a look at the links you suggested.

My best friend has also voiced her concerns over the first breeder we saw who has bred 3 times in 3 years. She just thinks it's wrong. However, both breeders are registered and have had their dogs health tested, both have good hip scores.

I asked the first breeder the reason for having the dew claws removed and she said they were of no use to the dog and susceptible to injury.

One thing that concerns me is inbreeding. I've read that as vizslas are not a hugely popular dog, the gene pool is limited. I found an awful website about polymitosis (sp?) which doesn't become apparent until the puppy is a little older. Some adverts for puppies show the names of the parents/grandparents etc 3 or 4 generations back. Some of the names look very similar.

I wouldn't buy a puppy who has had its dew claws removed. Was asked to hold a litter of puppies once whilst the vet chopped off their "thumbs" with a pair of scissors. The squeals they made turned my stomach. Completely unnecessary.

I know it probably doesn't matter too much who we go with. Wrong. It matters hugely.

Second breeder is a 'proper' breeder - would avoid the first like the plague. The true test would be to ask the breeders if you can return the dog if it doesn't work out and see how they react - always a good test to drive out the true breeders from the profiteers.

If you are thinking vizsla and could be persuaded to switch to weinerama then PM me. We have had 2 dogs in last 20 years from one of the best breeders in the country (a number of champions bred from her working dogs, and she is 'named' in forum after forum). She keeps in touch with the families of every single puppy she has ever let go and she is very strict on who can have them. We have phone calls from her every 6 months or so, and have had annual health updates on every single dog in both of the litters we have taken puppies from, so that we have known what to look out for in our own dogs. She is now retired but knows pretty much every weinerama breeder in the country and can point you to a good one.

Wiggypigs, that really has made my stomach churn. The first breeder told me the dew clews were very easily and painlessly removed before the puppies are a week old. Hmm.

StillSquiffy, I don't know about the first breeder but the second breeder definitely wants to keep in touch for at least the first year and has said that they would have the puppy back if it didn't work out. Thanks for your idea about weimaraners, they are beautiful dogs. Am going to go through this thread with DH later in the week when he's back from his work travels and will definitely consider.

Well it looks like the first breeder is a no! Thanks everyone.

Am going to see a third breeder tomorrow having ruled out the first one, so hopefully two reputable breeders to choose from.

Any other advice before we go would be gratefully received!

Inbreeding is an often misunderstood phrase used where similar kennel names are seen on a pedigree and worry sets in. There are three types of breeding; inbreeding, line breeding and outcrossing.

Outcrossing is a route often taken by amateur breeders - sometimes without them even knowing that's what they're doing, and involves a 'chance' mating - one where the stud dog is chosen for a bitch simply because someone likes the look of him, or he lives nearby or they are friends with its owner. A mating where few, if any, of the names on a pedigree match. In popular breeds, that is pretty easy to achieve and is sometimes immensely beneficial to the offspring.

Line breeding is the type of breeding most often carried out by committed breeders and those who compete with their dogs. It is a middle ground, if you like. The point of these breedings is to pick a stud dog who will complement the bitch and her characteristics and hopefully produce even better puppies. With line breeding a breeder will pick two dogs who SHARE many of the same lines which gives more of a certainty about how the puppies will turn out, and is more likely to produce fabulous puppies. Most successful competing dogs, both show and working have been bred in this way. Seeing the same kennel names and sometimes dogs names in a pedigree to me points to a well thought out mating, carried out by a committed and knowledgable breeders.

And then comes inbreeding. Another thing entirely. That is where matings are carried out between mother and son, father and daughter, brother to sister. Borderline inbreeding is between grandfather and grand daughter, half brother to half sister. It is sometimes carried out very, very successfully by incredibly experienced breeders, and in breeds which have a very small gene pool. Some breeders who really know their lines have produced some absolutely incredible dogs this way. It does not mean the dogs will be deformed, but it can mean that the inheritable, genetic diseases are more likely to appear in the offspring. Of course, IF this type of mating is carried out by a knowledgable breeder, they will likely have carried out genetic testing pre mating so they know what they are dealing with.

Hope that helps. Do shout if you need any more help.

daisydotandgertie - thank you so much for explaining breeding in detail. That is exactly what I've been trying to understand.

The first breeder who we saw - the puppies great grandfather on the mother's side is also the puppies grandfather on the father's side. I was trying to work out if that matters.

I had absolutely no clue about inbreeding, I find that very interesting.

I have a 3 year old Hungarian Vizsla. Out of the blue she badly attached one of other dogs that is a chihuahua. We have kept them apart until we decide what we are going to do. She is normally such a great nature dog who gets loads of exercise. We have a 7 year old boy with special needs that dotes on her.
We are considering getting her re-homed
Any advice?