Dominance Theory

[theodorakis]

I do believe that there is a level of hierarchy between my dogs and have had 40+ fosters in the last 10 years. however, we as humans do not bully, dominate or abuse our dogs. I think there may some misunderstanding on MN about the dominance theory. I do not support Mr Milan, in fact have no experience of him but I do think that sometimes ignoring my dogs, especially a newcomer allows them to make their own judgements. Sometimes a new dog takes a superior role which the others seem happy with, including the cats and who am I to argue with that? All I am saying is that is I sometimes mention dominance I am not stringing up a dog by his collar, just merely observing the animal behaviour. We are a family, not a pack.

Dogs do have a certain amount of hierachy between themselves but even that is not an alpha 'top dog' relationship.

What people seem to struggle with is that dogs dont have the same relationship with humans as they do with other dogs. The way they behave with other dogs doesn't reflect how they behave with humans. Dogs do actually know their owners arent another dog!

All this, they'll show you respect if you feed them at certain times, walk through a door behind you etc is rubbish. Yes, by all means teach your dog to wait until you are through a door for good manners but your dogs behaviour wont change because of it.

I think those that still think that the pack, alpha dominance type theory is relevant to dog/human training hasn't actually done much research. It's lazy.

What I was saying is that I don't particularly enjoy the vitriolic attacks some of have had from the anti dominance theory people here but what is so sad is that I actually don't believe in that stuff really either. I think most of us just muddle through and learn by our own experiences and take the lead (no pun intended) from our dogs. And dominating my lot would be an uphill struggle, they are far too indulged.

My two certainly seem to have a 'pack order' between themselves, though I think it's more that one is more confident/assertive than the other so tends to get things his way because he can, rather than him making a point of 'dominating' the other one for the sake of it.

Theo, I'd say that vitriolic attacks have been mainly made by pro-dominance posters.

I can't speak for others - I try to post in a polite, supportive and courteous way. Generally, if I really struggle to say anything nice, then I think it's wiser simply not to post at all.

What I would say, is that sometimes on here people seek help for behavioural issues; possible remedies can be suggested which are potentially dangerous, and likely to be ineffective. It's natural that people whose professional experience is involved with dogs, or like me, spend a lot of time volunteering with rescues, should be concerned, and genuinely try to suggest routes that are easier and safer for posters, their dogs and their families. From a rescue POV, I see a lot of the fallout when bad training/ownership goes wrong.

A great deal of academic work has been done to understand how dogs learn, and their social interactions - it would be a pity for that to be ignored.

Thankfully, we no longer suggest that beating children is an effective method of discipline, neither do we allow it in our schools and most homes. Slowly but surely, we are realising that "training" for dogs when involving harsh physical methods such as shock collars, etc is both morally wrong and ineffective.

I realise you don't advocate such extreme methods, but unfortunately a lot of dominance based trainers do, and there are plenty of them still out there.

John Bradshaw explains where 'dominance theory' comes from - and why it's (very) flawed - in 'In Defence of Dogs'.
IIRC, then basically, dominance theory re. dogs comes from the study of captive wolves, who did tend to be quite aggressive towards each other, probably because they were traumatised in captivity and with unfamiliar wolves in a confined space - so not behaving naturally.
I agree that dogs respect some sort of 'hierarchy' in that for example, generally happy younger dogs defer to older ones who they share a home with; also I think it's true that dogs are happier if their people take charge, set clear boundaries, etc. - and though I disagree with a lot of Milan's 'theory' where it gets too macho and gung-ho, I do agree with his 'calm, confident leader' stuff.
I think the knee jerk reaction to dominance theory is (as other posters have said) because sometimes it is overly aggressive, occasionally cruel and not really productive, and in recent years it's become stupidly fashionable, and is apparently regarded by some people as a quick-fix alternative to patient, consistent dog management.

I believe that my dog has her place in her 'pack' (one from bottom!) and that she gets 'protected' by the others when outside dogs come in. But I don't believe that I (or the other owners) have a place in the pack. I also think that dogs need to be introduced to each other and allowed to work out their own place in the hierarchy - owners that scoop their dogs into their arms at the first growl cause more long term problems than dogs that are allowed to test the waters themselves.

I don't believe that a human can be a 'Pack Leader' as CM puts it. I don't like a lot of what he does; the 'No touch, no talk, no eye contact' worked well with MuttDog when we first had her - but I'd always done that with overexcited dogs as it's just common sense, no one taught me it.

I'm a firm believer in teaching a dog good manners, such as no begging, no jumping up etc but again I taught that by ignoring it, turning my back etc then praising and treating when they stopped. CM seems to have adopted that as his own but I've been using it for years.

Recall was taught by fear/noise training - I know a lot of people don't like this and think I am cruel but it's always worked for me and I have always had dogs that I can walk at heal without a lead and I can recall from great distances.

I think CM (in small doses) can be a good thing if it leads to better behaved dogs, but I also believe that he has made an awful lot of money out of teaching things that really should be obvious. He perpetuates the Pack / Dominance myth and people that are new to dog ownership jump in with both feet without bothering to check the facts. They then advise others and so the myth goes on.

Sorry, please don't misunderstand me. The vitriolic anti dominance theory people on here are quite correct in my eyes. Now I understand what the dominance theory is I too am against it. It's just when I innocently bandied the word around meaning my dog's behaviour I was surprised at the reaction I received. Now i get it, I agree and the so called vitriolic people are actually decent, knowledgeable dog people who want us to learn the difference between dog behaviour and interaction with humans.

I think that some dogs have more confident personalities than others and need more rigid boundaries from an owner, but I don't think it's about dominance as such. I only have one dog (more than enough!) but when we meet other dogs they definitely seem to sort out who's the boss quite quickly. Sometimes my dog is, sometimes he is submissive. He has never tried to 'dominate' me or my family, or anyone else, but he does push his luck if he thinks the human in question will allow it. Hence watching him nibble the end of DS2's toast yesterday while DS2 was eating the other end and oblivious as he was hypnotised by 'Adventure Time'. He wouldn't attempt to eat something I was eating, because he knows I'd tell him off. DS2 tends to shrug and carry on eating (I am working on this ). Anyway, I think what I'm saying in a round about way is that dogs seem to have individual relationships with individual people, rather than have us organised in a pack structure. This is based purely on my limited observations, though. But dogs must see other dogs and people differently, because my dog has never been anything but friendly and waggy to humans of all shapes, sizes and ages. Sometimes he wants to do some serious woofage at other dogs. And cats. Pigeons. Oh, and hoses.

Theo, unfortunately there are some posters that come into the Doghouse with an axe to grind. No matter what the knowledgeable dog people say, they will purposely say the opposite. Maybe as a result of a prior flaming, maybe just to shit stir. It's annoying and unhelpful for those who really do want help or advice - and in some cases down right dangerous (thinking of the advice given to one poster about flipping their dog over and sniffing their balls to 'assert their dominance' )

I find the DH interesting and informative. I would say I was pretty experienced with dogs from my work with a rescue and being around 'doggy' people most of my life, but I stil have stuff to learn. Those posters that won't ever see a different viewpoint, won't accept they could be wrong and cannot back up their claims tend to be pretty vitriolic about it - but they also goad other posters until they blow and it's the 'other' posters that get the blame, not the uninformed goader. You are nothing like them

Chickens, was that a typo - or does your dog really have a problem with hoses? MuttDog barks at dusbins, but I thought she was the only one with an issue with inaninmate objects

Hoses are very naughty and must be kept in their place, that is a message from the Theo menagerie! My last foster refused to go near drain covers but would give them a good growl as she skirted them.

Confident is maybe a better word then. My BearDog is confident and pushy (typical Rott!), so you need to have firm boundaries with him, and I guess you could call that dominance. The problem with the word is that some people mean it in the sense of the dog wanting to be dominant/top-dog/alpha for the sake of the status, which is probably not what's happening. With mine it's more that he likes having his own way and doesn't see why he shouldn't!

I'm guessing this is a thread about a thread, not sure I've seen the one it's about though so I might be missing something? There are certainly some people on here with very rigid views (on both sides of the debate), which is not always helpful - I think sometimes you have to take a different approach with different dogs. For example we mostly use a positive approach, but I have occasionally used a rattle-can (and sharp tone of voice!) with BearDog, and it has worked. However I would never use such methods with OldDog who came to us from an abusive home and was very nervous and fearful, with him it was all positive and aimed at building his confidence and trust.

Nope, not a typo. Jas has a thing about hoses. Strangely, he's fine with them in use, and enjoys a good hose down, but he doesn't like them when they're coiled and plotting.

plotting

Ironing boards are also unpredicatable bastards. New puppy is very suspicious of those door characters, instead preferring to try the cat flap even though he is twice the size.

Jasper's arch nemesis is the vacuum cleaner. He loathes it. If I accidentally leave it near his stuff, he stands and barks at it until I remove it, then picks up his destuffed fox/rope toy/manky sock and stalks off in disgust throwing evils over his shoulder. He will randomly amble past and bite it's hose when he thinks I'm not looking, too.

MuttDog doesn't care about the hoover, but she does have an aversion to the kitchen brush. We've had to hide it behind the door otherwise she would spend most of the night growling at it.

I have discovered this morning that Mutt is scared of the teeny tiny 5 week old kitten my boss is currently looking after. I thought she was jealous at first but no, it's fear. Maybe LittleKit is plotting world domination as we speak and MuttDog is the only one that can tell...