So what effect do we think celebrity dog trainers have on how the average dog owner trains their pet?

[D0oinMeCleanin]

No, I'm not cheating, I am researching and getting my ideas straight

Obviously they have an effect. People believe that what they see on TV is 100% real and true. And obviously if someone has made it to TV they must be the best in their field and have qualifications coming out of their ears. right? So people copy what they see on TV.

Whether this is good or bad would depend upon which trainer you are watching. I think a certain celeb trainer has a lot to answer for when it comes to death of dominance training being so slow.

Copying his methods could have disastrous consequences for both dog and owner, especially if his techniques were used on a fearful dog.

Other trainers use more positive methods which can only be good because positive training needs promoting in order to shush up the bull shit that is dominance theory. But even then, is it a good thing? It's so easy to misinterpret what you are being told/shown and get it wrong.

And what about we what we don't see? Those of us with problem dogs know that their issues cannot be solved in a 30 minute TV slot. But people new to dog owning may not realise this and might become disheartened when they don't see results as quickly.

There is also the risk that people may believe that watching a TV show is as good as going to a class, although on the other hand watching some TV shows is better than nothing, watching others is very, very bad. A book would be better than a TV show but even then is not as good as one to one sessions with experienced behaviourists.

People new to the world of dog training will struggle to weed out the charletons from the real behaviourists.

I need to turn ^ that into a 1000 word essay with references [panic]

some Cesar Milan references

Interesting reading

apdt saying basically what you have said

Are these the kind of references that you need? Have to go bed now and not around tomorrow but can look again if this is what you need.

I have the APDT link already and an american version too, but the other two are great thanks.

I was really just trying to make what is my head sound sensible and clever but I got distracted by wine

I am old enough to remember Barbara Woodhouse and her chokechains

I like Victoria Stilwell at the moment,m it I watch the shows much as I might watch supernanny: to feel smug at spotting where the hapless owners are going wrong. I don't feel smug enough to imagine that correcting problematic behaviour is as easy as all that though. But as a philosophy, I think Stilwell is more in tune with the style of training I am comfortable with than Cesar Milan.

I vaguely recall BW and her Sittttt with mega emphasis on the 'ttttt' sound.

I tried it on my Dobe once. If dogs could do , she would have done it. She did sit, though. Once she worked out what I was trying to say.

A lot of dog owners don't go to training classes, preferring to train the dog at home. Interestingly this doesn't lead to more behaviour problems. However, the type of training method is linked to issues, and if they've got their ideas off the wrong celebs, they'll be using the wrong training methods. I can give you a ref if you like, don't have link to hand right now. Attending puppy socialization classes, on the other hand, does make a difference and is very important for good reactions to other dogs.

The classes that are accessible to me are advocates of rolled up newspapers and dominance / pack theory.

Thankfully I have a local chap who is good who I can access for one to one if needs be.

Oh and one of them thinks Cesar Milan is "an example to us all of how simple it is to have a well behaved subservient dog".

I think you've raised a really interesting issue. To me, (I'm 47) this question has to be set against the background of two important cultural changes. Firstly, "lifestyle" TV has taken off in a way that was unimaginable even twenty years ago - there are now whole channels devoted to animal related programmes, and things like Rural TV etc - so there's just so much more of it around.

Secondly, we've seen a very big shift in the way dogs are perceived. In my own childhood, dogs were accepted as an everyday part of life, no biggy, no issues. No "status" dogs, and neither we nor the dogs were specially trained - it was all very laissez-faire and we muddled along.

Nowadays, fewer people have dogs, there's massive anxiety around certain breeds/types, huge worries in general about dogs approaching PFB children - I regularly cite MN anti dog threads as worthy of reading by people who work professionally with dogs. MN is a great example of mainstream well educated parents and in that sense is a very useful microcosm of social attitudes. You only have to consider the recent threads about a childminder who dared to have a sabre toothed tiger loose in her kitchen (well, nearly - it was a Staffy) and even some of the comments about Lennox to see that dogs are a huge source of anxiety for many, many parents.

Ironically, then, as fewer parents allow their children out of the bubble to meet any real dogs, there's a huge growth in animal TV so DC can watch in a a safe, sanitised bubble. This may also help explain the popularity of certain trainers - a dominance based trainer who tells you there's a wolf in your living room could actually reinforce the message that dogs are scary and can only be handled by wankers/big strong men armed with prong collars.

Oooh I remember BW ( I'm 46) but more the horses programme than the dogs.

I remember her "Blowing up the horses nose" and giving sugar on demand.
When a foal was at the farrier with its dam, she fed sugar until that ran out, then gave the foal (who was getting arsey by now) grass.

. Compare now how completely outdated her "methods" were.

I remember walking the family doberman to meet my sisters from school if I had an inset day and they didn't. I was only 11/12 and completely alone to handle this big dog.

She was allowed in the school. Small children would swarm us when we arrived. Parent's didn't bat an eyelid. Kids in the street would come and ask if she could "play out" with them, it was always allowed.

Even in my teens a there were still a fair few 'latch key dogs' who were left to wander during the day and took themselves home at night.

I can picture the reaction now if a child turned up at primary school with a unleashed, none muzzled Doberman

That's true DooIn, I was 8 when I got my first dog. Which means I must have been 7 when I was allowed to take the neighbours German Shepherd over the common, on my own.

I think it has had a massive impact on me! I watched the dog whisperer and whilst I was somewhat sceptical of cms methods, I was amazed at some of the stuff people were putting up with from their dogs! That alone prompted me to find a puppy training class :0)

I don't get the hostility towards Cesar Milan. I have 5yr old Rhodesian Ridgeback. I grew up with working labradors, read about Ridgebacks extensively, so knew that he was unlikely to be as trainable as the Labs. Jan Fennel was required reading by the breeder, so I started with that approach but found it a bit impractical. Did 'clicker training' (as they were local classes) for over a year, but still had difficulty controlling him 'off lead'. Then I watched Cesar Milan on TV, and although I had very little in common with his clientele, I found the 'exercise, discipline, affection' mantra and the advice about walking tall and being a bit more physically imposing very helpful, and very soon I had a relaxed and amenable hound. I did interpret 'discipline' to mean firm boundaries consistently enforced rather than physical discipline. I do think he needs to know I'm in charge, he's a big, imposing dog and many people are scared of him just because of his size, despite him generally having a relaxed posture(ridgees tend to stare at people, which can be unnerving!). I have actually found some of the ideas helpful in parenting my boisterous 2nd old son.
Why the anti-Cesarism?

Because on the rare occasions he does talk sense, it's because he's repeating stuff that decent trainers have been saying for YEARS, although he likes to pretend it's groundbreaking stuff he's discovered himself.

On other occasions, he advises something that does work - BUT clearly misunderstands WHY it works.

Most of the time he just gives out dangerous, cruel advice.

No idea if all the videos showing him kicking dogs (it's no more a "heel tap" than punching someone on the nose is a "love prod" and using covert electric collars are still up on Youtube but anyone who can watch them and not loathe the man and his methods is not someone I'd wish to know.