advice needed on toilet training an older dog please

[MrsRhettButler]

Hi I have a staff x ABD who is approx nearly 3 yo, we got him when he was around 8 months old 2 years ago.
He came to us totally untrained and has done really well in all other areas but will still mess in the house if left out of his crate.
I would really love to be able to leave him out especially at night, dp and I have just split and my area is known for burgleries and I would feel a lot safer if I could give him free roam of the house.
Before he came to us he was left locked in the kitchen all day with one other dog and was allowed to mess in there.
Its not that he needs to go either, I walk him last thing at night and he has a massive long walk each morning.
Any advice would be great :)
(We did have two dogs but dp took one and I kept this one)

Bumping

Oh c'mon! someone must have some idea?

Thank you, I was about to check if I had my invisibility on

I guess the problem is that he thinks he can go inside if that is what he used to be allowed to do.

First thing is to make sure you clean where he has pooed etc with specialist cleaner or biological washing powder in boiling water. Other cleaners actually enhance the urine smell to the dog and actually encourage them to wee in the same place again.

There are two main things I would do.

Firstly I would treat him like a puppy and take him outside to wee often. With older dogs they tend ot have a pattern of when they need to wee etc so take him outside at these times and in between. If he "perfoms" outside give him a treat and major praise. Be prepared to do this for a long time several weeks until he has really got the idea.

The next thing you could do when he is getting the idea of going outside is to let him have a little bit more space than his crate eg put a puppy pen around his crate. So he is still restricted but has a slightly larger area. IF he does not wee or poo in this area then you can gradually enlarge the area until he is left in one room.

However he has a lot to learn and a lot of habits to break so go slowly with him and do give him a bit of slack if he "forgets now and again" Never ever punish him for weeing in the wrong place but do praise like mad for perfoming in the correct place.

Let us know how you get on

Thank you Herbert, its more pooping than weeing but guess the same applies? I will use the special cleaner as I wasn't aware of that, I do let him out often and he does wee almost every time, if he poops outside I've been treating him so will continue to do that :) (I make a MASSIVE fuss when he poops outside) the neighbours must think I'm potty!

his crate is humungous so not sure if I could do the puppy pen thing but will have a look at what I can do. Thanks again

Sorry, one other thing. So when he does mess in the house why do you say don't punish? Just interested as I don't hit him or anything but I usually draw his attention to it and say bad boy or whatever. Should I not be doing this?

From what I understand the reason for not punishing is that unless you catch him in the act he won't know what you're going on about when you tell him off and even if you do catch him he might think you're telling him off for pooing, rather than the place he's doing it, which could cause him to try and hide where he poos or cause some other form of stress-related behaviour.

It sounds like he just hasn't learned to go outside only - the problem if you punish him, even if its just telling him off or showing him a mess and telling him he is bad is er, several-fold..

Firstly - he won't link his actions to the actual problem, that the poo/wee is in the wrong place.
Secondly - he WILL associate the presence of poo/wee and YOU with unpleasantness

The chances are then that if you come home, or you come downstairs and he has messed, and you find it and tell him off.. it makes him more anxious, because he doesn't understand... the more anxious he gets the more likely he is to mess, particularly when you go out. Its actually a classic way to create or worsen a seperation anxiety problem.

As has been said - treat him like a tiny puppy - out as often as you can, reward superwell when he goes outside, really throw a party for him so he knows you LOVE it when he does it there. Try once he gets the idea, to associate a cue word with the action (just say 'weewees' or 'toilet' or 'busy' as he goes, and repeat that word each time he goes until its associated with the action).

If he has an accident.. well its your fault really, for not preventing it.. so clean it up when he isn't present (because no matter how good an actress you are, you will behave in a way that makes it clear you are unhappy and a sensitive dog will pick up on that) and say no more about it.

Personally, at night if he is doing this, I would move him into my room - start out crated and then move him into his own bed, t hat way IF he gets up in the night you can hear him and take him outside. Once he can handle keeping clean overnight in a room you are in you can then move him out of that room to the landing for example (you may need to return to crating to keep him in one place).. and so on until he is more confident and happy.

Sometimes very small changes can really fix a problem, I remember one lady whose dog suddenly started weeing when left, even if she was upstairs. She was pregnant and her bitch picked up on this... it actually turned out the WHOLE problem was caused by her putting a baby gate at the bottom of the stairs so the bitch could not come upstairs any more. She moved the gate to her bedroom door so the dog could see in, but not actually COME in.. and end of problem. The dog was just anxious because from her point of view, she couldn't see her mum/get to her at night.

There is no point in telling him after he's done the deed as he'll have no idea what your going on about and as a result make him nervous. If you catch him in the act scold him "bad dog", or similar and put him outside to finish off then heaps of praise. When I let mine out before bedtime I issue a "wees and poos, be quick" as a result he goes to the toilet on command.

Is he getting the most out of his food or is it just going straight through him, cheaper brands bulk their food up with stuff that's not a palatable/digestible as brands that are more expensive.

Hope this helps.

I agree with widdling re the telling off all it does is confuse the dog. "What she doesn't like me weeing or pooing?" rather than she doesn't like me weeing and pooing in this location. So the dog tends to get stressed or poo out of sight of you eg behind sofas and under beds etc. So rewarding outside is a clear message that "she luvvvvvves me weeing and pooing here - I will do it again as the treat was fab"

So totally ignore a poo in the wrong place. How many times a day does he poo, and what do you feed him on.

It is great that he has a big crate as that means he does not like to poo in his bed area and if he has already got the idea that it is a big area you can build on that. You need to expand his bed area in his head to be the whole house if you get my drift!

I would not even tell him off if I caught him doing it inside but just a really breezy and happy "oh dear lets go outside" and then praise him if he finishes off outside.

Blimey posts like buses no posts for ages then they all come at once

at posts like buses! Thanks you all, am at work so haven't read through properly but will read and reply later once I leave work :)

Will admit my expertise is down to watching 'Its me or the Dog', but I think the poo problem is much worse if the dog has access to food all the time. If the dog is only fed twice a day then the pooing will become more predictable & less frequent.

Good luck!

I had this with a rescue greyhound who had only lived in kennels before I got him. I took it right back to basics and just made sure that he went out often. I made sure that he knew he wasn't to mess in the house by stern words (and I don't mean shouting or hitting) followed by a spell outside if he messed when I was there. I always, always praised for weeing/pooing in the garden too. I do agree though, that there is no point telling off unless you catch him in the act. It only took a week or so for my greyhound to figure out what I wanted him to do. Good luck.

Right, I'm back from work. Thank you all for the replies.

Ok totally get the no telling off thing now, I don't want to make him nervous :(

Will take him right back to basics, treat him like a puppy, he already goes on command so that's good, he knows what want, I say 'do your business' and he defo knows what that means.
.
R.e the food, he is a snacker so doesn't always eat straight away does that mean I should take his bowl away and give it back later? Up until now dp always bought the dog food so not sure what brand it is, I'll find out.

herbert he usually does two poos on his morning walk and will sometimes do one later at night on his last walk but not always (as he's always crated at night he doesn't do one then but I know he would if I left him out, even if he had done one on his late night walk)
He can literally have done two or even three poos but then still squeeze out another if leave him out, even straight after a walk.

I think I've answered everyone and will let you know how it goes :)

The only thing I'm not sure about is the expanding of the crate, its in the hallway downstairs and there's really nowhere else to put it, wonder if just closing all doors downstairs and giving him the run of the hallway would work? The problem is my kitchen has no door so it would actually be the hallway and kitchen.so quite a big area

Snacking IS v bad for dogs - they are not good as grazers, they are binge/starve style eaters.

Just ask if you want to know all the why nots/myriad bizarre issues it can cause but basically, theres no set time for food in, so there will be no set time for poo out.

Be sure he likes the food and its a good food - some dogs graze because actually the food is vile/they hate it/it gives them a tummy ache/etc etc so they only eat the bare minimum.
This probably isn't the issue with your dog but it is worth being aware of, we easily forget dogs can have low grade stomach pain/nausea/etc from food that doesn't agree, just as we can!

Once you are sure the food is good quality (ideally, grain free and with as few ingredients as possible!), he actually likes it etc... put the food down in the bowl, tell him its food time, walk away and give him ten minutes. Once the ten minutes are up, send him out of the room and put the food bowl away (don't take it from him if he is eating and you don't want to cause a 'hey thats mine' problem).

Make sure no one else is feeding him titbits and if you want to use rewards to train with, use his food! With either no extra stuff in there, or just the tiniest bits of cheese for occasional 'jackpots' to keep him interested.

Stick with this for several days, he might TELL you he is dying, or he hates the food, or its the end of the world, but if you are consistent with it, he WILL get it in the end and his toiletting will be much more predictable too.

Okaaay, this is making sense, he actually does have a more sensitive stomach than our other dog, she could eat loads of stuff whereas he would get the runs if given too many apple cores/carrots (or anything else really) we don't give tidbits, the dc know not to feed him so right now all he eats is (dry) dog food and bits of carrot for treats. Oh and the occasional piece of cheese but that's not very often at all.

Sounds to me like he's not enjoying the food you're giving him. Mine was a "grazer" and he lost a tremendous amount of condition and his hair started to fall out. I changed his food and he wolfs it down now and is putting on a lot more condition and his coat is shiny also he poos alot less.

l did feed pro plan puppy when he was younger excellent puppy food but very expensive. I moved him onto beta adult which caused the problems now I feed symply. It's a uk based company that source local ingredients, and it's not full of all the nasties. Also quite pricey but it's a small price to pay for ultimately ur dogs health and your own sanity!