Would it be madness for us to get a Border Collie?

[magicmutt]

I had lots of good advice here a few weeks ago when I asked advice about getting a dog for my anxious child. I have namechanged since then because my son now knows my other nickname and I don't want him to see me discussing him.

Anyway, we have been walking a nine-year-old Border Collie as a way of getting used to being with a dog before getting our own. She is a beautiful, sweet-natured dog and now DS1 (12) has his heart set on getting a Border Collie. On Sunday, we visited Dog's Trust, where we were able to get some advice. The woman we spoke to felt that a puppy would suit us and said that a Border Collie would be fine, provided we were prepared to put the work in. She said they need a lot of stimulation - not just walks, but also playing and training. DS1 was almost jumping up and down with excitement at the prospect.

We have a tiny garden and live in a small terraced house, but we live round the corner from the South Downs, so there is endless space for dog walking, which we are more than willing to do. It would be brilliant if DS1 gets involved with training, as it will get him out of the house (he has only just started going out after six months where he couldn't go out the front door) and help him to mix with people. The local vet runs free 'puppy parties', which teach you how to train your pet, and DS1 wants to go to these (he usually refuses to go anywhere, so this, in itself, is amazing).

As well as myself and DS1, our family also include DS2 (six) and my DH. Although the dog will be a family pet, we are mainly getting it to help my oldest son. To be honest, we would do anything to help him. For the last six months, he's been unable to attend school or leave the house thanks to OCD and generalised anxiety. However, animals seem to free him from his fears. When he is walks our neighbour's Collie, he lightens up, chats to people, makes eye contact when he's talking, runs, laughs - it's really magical to see. I think he feels safe around animals in a way that he doesn't with humans.

But I don't want to make a terrible mistake and get a dog that is going to make life more stressful for all of us. I can't take much more stress, to be honest, though I am fully prepared for the work involved in having a puppy and am, actually, quite looking forward to that and to having another member of our family. And I will be eternally grateful to the dog if it helps DS1.

We had a collie, a beautiful, loving, giddy, happy, hyper animal.

Basically they are like a mad hyper 3 year old. Boundless energy, lots of fun, lots of love, gorgeous dog, but be prepared for lots of work. Someone will need to give the dog attention all the time, runa and play with him and basically bring him everywhere.

Also someone will have to clean up all the poop from the garden etc.

If you are prepared for that, then go for it.

A collie really craves attention and will scratch at doors if locked out and will really, really pine for you.

They can also shed and have longish hair so can be quite mucky after walking in the rain. Prepare for your paintowrk to get scruffy and for your carpets to get a bit smelly (if the wet dog comes back into the house). Will your ds be up for as much walking in the winter?

If you are seriously considering it please contact Wiccaweys for some sensible and realistic advice, they really know their stuff when it comes to collies.

Personally I don't think a Border Collie is a good choice for a first dog and I don't really consider them suitable for someone one who just wants a pet. However that is just my opinion and for all the ones that are abandoned as their owners didn't realise what they were taking on their will always be some that adapt easily to family life.

Given your circumstances, I would say that it will involve a lot of work.
I had a border collie and she was totally nutso for 3 or 4 years. That was with long walks, endless games of fetch and catch, and training sessions.

However- if there is an agility class available, make sure your ds1 and you attend. Collies need to work and need to be stimulated or they will attempt to round up the family or get destructive. Kes used to try with seagulls or the family cats. If neither were about she would use her brain to try and steal- she got very good and learned how to open the breadbin.

That said, I am desperate for another dog myself and having been chucked in at the deep end when I had her, there's no other breed I love as much, and should circumstances allow at some point I will have another.

I had two border collies and now just have one and they are lovely dogs with children. I wouldn't have one if I wasn't going to be around all day as they get bored and need walking etc but if your son is home schooled and about then I can see it would be ideal really. Dog rescue places tend to have lots of collie cross dogs too :) good luck

Hi, what you need to do, is think about your home (size) activities of your family, and then match them to a dog - size, temperament and energy level.

There are: high energy dogs, which need a LOT of exercise and training and never keep still, medium energy dogs and low energy dogs.

Collies are the highest energy level of all. They are actually working dogs so can get very frustrated. Paradoxically collies/collie X feature very highly in the dog bite league, higher than German shepherds (see frustration above). I personally wouldn't get a collie, especially as a first dog.

Medium energy dogs are things like labradors.

The lowest energy dog of all is !greyhounds!. They really barely move.

Also: are you a neat and tidy person/houseproud? If so, remember moulting which happens twice a year. The worst moulters are golden retrievers, and the least are dogs which don't shed their coats ie poodles.

Maybe your son could look at a poodle x or short haired terrier types - not too big, up for a laugh, needs lots of training and attention, but small enough for a cuddle. And THE MOST loyal dogs under the sun.

Hope that information helps.

In my Agility group we have three children who have acquired dogs in similar circumstances though they are all girls two had been bullied terribly and one has had anorexia. All three dogs were acquired on the basis of the advice from of HCP. There is a border collie, a springer and a doberman. All have been very successful at achieving their aim of helping their mistresses to overcome their problems, plus the have gone on to become top quality agility dogs and all three will be competing in a special junior event in the summer.
All three of the girls have commited themselves to hours of training starting first with obdience and then on to agility. The way we train in our club means that all human to human interaction is always made on the basis of training your dog.

For me the border collie and the springer have been so successful because they are high energy dogs (both girls were bullied) there is not much chance to ignore them if they need a walk. The Dobie has been a good choice for the anorexic as he is less demanding and offers complete unconditional and unjudgemental love.
Your DS is a similar age all three of these girls when they started. I do agree that you do need to do your research about just how active they are.
Find a lovely club like we are with lots of supportive trainers who love to see anyone succeed. We train primarily for fun and celebrate every tiny achievement not just related to dog training (I do think a week goes by without us clapping someones achievement be it winning an enormous cup at an agility show or just passing a driving test).
As a vet I have spent a lot time reading articles about human dog interaction and how it can help different people and the key is the unconditional and non-judgemental love (I know we give it as parents children often can't see it). Pets are amazing confidants they never ever tell anyone else your secrets and if it's really bad their fur is brilliant for moping up tears.
I hope you find the right dog for all of you as I think you are right there is an excellent chance that a dog could offer your DS the support that he is looking for.

I got a border collie on the day I finished work to go on maternity leave and although I wouldn't advise anyone else to do that I was an experienced dog owner and we were fine. I took her to loads of training classes and worked really hard with her and with the DC's as they grew up so that they knew how to treat dogs.
They are wonderful dogs and I would have another one if I wasn't working full-time and I didn't have my old springer.

I wasn't particularly experienced and have been fine with mine. I do think you have to like walking though.

I think the best thing about them is their good health. Mine were very healthy and the old one lived until she was 18 without anything major wrong. I still miss her, she was a bit nuts :o and full of character and I miss her so much. That's the downside of pet ownership isnt it?

Would your DS be interested in seriously pursuing agility as a hobby? Could you commit to taking him and the dog to training classes 2-3 times a week and travelling (perhaps long distances) for him to attend shows? If so, and if he would benefit from having this kind of structured hobby/goal type thing, I think a collie could be very beneficial for him. :)

Usual caveats apply - walking a dog is nothing like having your own in the house shedding hair, dust, mud, chewing things, having accidents etc. Collies need a great deal of exercise and most importantly mental exercise - they will walk for four hours and then when you get home exhausted will bring you a ball and yelp until you throw it for them. They can be very, very draining. That said, a collie doing a job (and agility is the perfect job for them) is a beautiful thing to see and it could perhaps give your DS a lot of confidence to be part of that.

I second approaching somewhere like Wiccaweys for a second opinion.

BC are fantastic dogs, they are so intelligent, emphatic, kind, busy, bossy, loads of energy and hard work

What concerns me in your post is that you could not deal with anymore stress. At the moment your contact with a collie is a well trained older dog. The reality of a collie puppy/or collie dog new to your home will be completely different. I would say if honest all collie owners have at times been stressed by their dog. If only for the need for constant stimulation.

I would not recommend a collie for a first time dog owner especially if you can not give him a large percentage of your time and commitment, which as a mum will be hard.

Collies can nip, they react very very quickly and this could be an issue with children but having said that of course not all collies do. They are also very emphatic to their owners mood and whereas a goldie will recognise the mood and not be bothered by it, a collie will directly be affected by the owners mood. So a nervous collie owner tends to have a nervous collie, a chilled collie owner tends to have a chilled collie.

Collies are not often used for assistance dogs for this reason and also although very intelligent are not as bomb proof as other dogs. Collies do need more than a job to do I think they are career dogs! It doesn't matter what the career is agility, ball fetching, frisbee chasing, obedience etc. However they are full on career junkies and will work on this for hours at a time. You can not be a ball fetching career collie without this needing to be challenging no just chasing a ball - you will need commands, instruction, changes to this every day to stop the collie working out other ways of doing things.

The other thing about collies is once you have owned one you will always want a collie in your life they are the most amazing brilliant intelligent dogs.

If your son could be persuaded to get involved in agility training then it sounds a brilliant idea! My DS is Aspie & our whippet has done more to help him than any other therapy he's had. She's been amazing for his self-esteem and social skills, & really drawn him out of his shell.

I'm hoping that when DS gets to approx 12-13, that we can get a young collie/whippet X for him to take to agility classes. I have no idea of the science behind it all but my son is living proof of the benefits a dog can bring to a troubled child.

Dogs trust now has an official scheme with PAWS to help new owners select he ideal dog for families where there's a child with autism. Considering many of the issues for both groups of kids OCD & ASD are very much anxiety based it might be worth giving them a call to see if they can help you make the right selection of individual dog

paws.dogsforthedisabled.org/ In your shoes I'd sign up for their workshops as after all knowledge is power . The more informed you are when selecting your son's companion the more likely it is to be a resounding success for both dog and boy long term.

I have a border collie springer cross and I can honestly say I have never met such a lazy dog! This morning infact, he watched me get ready for work and didn't even bother coming down for a wee, he just laid there, tail wagging now and again with one eye closed and one eye open. I think mine is an exception to the rule though! (see my photo's)

What I will say is be careful around cars and buses or anything with wheels, mine had a fascination when a pup which reappeared randomly on Friday night nearly resulting in his untimely death luckily he has more lives than a cat.

They are beautiful intelligent dogs, mine was a bit crazy when he was a pup but mellowed once past 3/4. They can be very devious and a tad bossy so do need firm guidlines but I was a very inexperienced 20 year old when I got mine, I didn't even know what breed he was til I got home and researched. (Goes against everything I believe in but I could not leave him in that horrible pet shop) He has been hard work but I can hand on heart say my life as been enriched from him being in it. He is my best mate, fiercely loyal, cuddly, hilarious at times (especially when he thinks if he can't see me, I can't see him) and the most affectionate (to me at least) dog I have ever met. He greets me with such joy whether I have just been out with the bins, or if I have been at work all day!

HTH :)

Border collie are great. But are a sponge when it comes to emotions. If your son lacks confidence then your collie is likely to lack it too as they can be nervous anyway with confident owner. I used to have working collies so am experienced. I recommend a Labrador as they are confident friendly easy going and very loyal.

I too have a BC springer cross who was nothing like signet2012's!
She is 9 now and very well trained, still loves a walk (although not as long as she used to like) and has survived 3 kids being brought into the house.

But, we had her for 18 months before the first dd arrived. In that time, we worked very very hard with her, to train her, for her to teach her what she needed, and for us to teach her what is acceptable behaviour.
I call her my furry first born, because she took up as much of our time as our children did.

On the other hand, she is bloody lovely and I wouldn't change her for the world.

And to whomever said they moult twice yearly...shouldn't that be twice hourly?? I hoover twice, 3 times a day...

My first dog was a cross BC and retriever. He was the sweetest natured dog, completely mad, but lovely with children. However, he needed at least 2 walks a day - at least an hour each.

If your DS is set on a dog, is there a dog you could 'borrow' for a week to live with you? I only ask as a friends DD really wanted a pup, and my friend organised a rather ancient lab to stay for a week. After a week her DD decided she didn't want a dog anymore due to the hard work she was expected to put in with the lab. I thought this is a good way to show children just how much work is involved.

However, I am a big fan of having animals to help humans, has he met any other smaller breeds or just the Border Collie? Whatever you decide good luck!!

Thank you all. You have all given me lots to think about. I have made a list of pros and cons based on what everyone has said, but I'm no nearer making a decision. On one hand, having a high-energy dog that requires a lot of training, walking and play could be the making of DS1. He is keen to get into training the dog and has been watching videos on YouTube - but, for all I know, his enthusiasm may wane once the novelty has worn off and then it'll be down to me to do everything.

Gobblers - thanks for that link. I will check it out.

Lizcat - that is very encouraging to hear. I can imagine DS benefiting hugely from being involved with classes like that.

toboldlygo - am not sure, at this stage, how far DS would go with classes, but it's good to know that he could take his interest further if he wants.

snoopy - yes, I'm concerned about the stress aspect as well. It's hard to know, in advance, how much the stress would be outweighed by the pleasure of having such an interesting dog.

bochead - thanks for that link. I looked it up, but unfortunately I don't think I'm eligible for the workshops because DS1 doesn't have an ASD diagnosis, although he does have 'autistic traits' mentioned. I might give them a ring and ask, as it sounds like a wonderful scheme.

battery - good idea about borrowing a dog for a week.

Off to check out the Wiccaweys link before I fall asleep....

You could ask for their expertise and assistance on choosing a dog for your son via the Dogs Trust as they have expert rehomers for kids with disabilities. The rehoming skills part of their service I thought might be especially helpful & that I wish I'd known about. Individual dogs even within a specific breed vary so very much. (Our own dog was the 3rd we looked at that had everything "on paper" that I wanted).

There are other breeds that are great for agility, and it may be that a BC cross is better than a purebreed or even something not yet considered on this thread such as a poodle? You won't know for sure till you tap that expert advise.

Our special kids need extra special companions and the rehoming/matching skills between & even within individual rescues vary considerably. I just wish I'd known there were people out there who had this level of knowledge re choosing individual dogs for anxious kids when I was searching for the perfect companion for my own son. It would have saved me a LOT of worry and legwork! I feel I eventually got it right for my boy, but it took me a solid year of research, and legwork to do so.

I'm keen that your dog will achieve the same level of success for your son as ours has for my boy.

I was going to suggest a collie cross too. We have a collie crossed with a terrier, he is gorgeous and so good. He was a dream with basic training, is happy with just one walk a day and sleeps a lot of the other time and is a happy waggy fella. I personally think that rescue dogs can be easier than puppies as you know what you are getting. Also on the downside he moults something rotten and he really smells!!! Good luck with it xx

We've just adopted a "failed' guide dog. She's 2 and has been beautifully trained. She's over the worst of the mad puppy stage and we haven't had to go through all the toilet training etc. that we did with our first dog. This might be a great alternative for you. Contact your local guide dog association.

Magicmutt - To lay my cards on the table, I am very Wiccaweys biased as I have 2 of their collies and a lot to do with them.

Before you "write off" a collie, actually RING Wiccaweys and speak to Paul or Sarah to explain your circumstances. They have far more dogs than they show on the website and they range from the super lazy, to the most dopey, to mega hyper-worky to super friendly. They also have a large number of ABC dogs. (Anything But Collie ).

What they do, do, is assess each dog completely individually and thoroughly, so they know exactly what home a dog could match. And that includes "first time dog collies".

I'm a bit at the Dogs Trust saying you'd be fine with a BC puppy - it may be that you'll be fine for a BC, but a slightly older dog who has gone through the hooligan stage will be a better bet for your stressful household. Plus unlike the Dogs Trust Wiccaweys will give you constant back-up and support for the Dogs life (via phone and behaviourally) and also have a safe rescue space waiting regardless of how long you've had the dog if you can't keep it for what ever reason.

bochead - am still waiting for a reply from PAWS. Thanks so much for telling me about the expert rehomers. I'm so glad getting a dog worked out so well for your son. Out of all the help DS has received so far, being with a dog is the most helpful - up there with the meds he takes, as far as I can tell, but without the side effects .

cumbrian - Collie Cross is a definite consideration, thanks.

Nun - I'll look into this also. I do like the idea of a pre-trained dog! (Although it might be good for DS to do the training).

QuietTiger - thanks so much. I have looked at their website, but I'll give them a ring and see what they say.

I have two border collies. You do need to really, really wear them out with lots of exercise or they don't settle when in the house. They'll follow you around constantly, want to play, and generally get underfoot unless they are really knackered. Pre-child I ran with my two and this seemed to do the trick. No good walking them on the lead as this isn't enough, they need to run around. Are there sheep near you? One of mine is a sheep chaser, the other couldn't care less which means I have to be very careful.

I love collies, but I wouldn't have another one. Next time I will get a more laid back breed that doesn't shed so much as the hair drives me round the twist.

I think it sounds as if your DS is ready to bond with any dog, and does not necessarily need the extra challenge that a clever energetic BC can pose ( in my opinion.) You really don't want this to fail. My advice would be to get a puppy or dog from a more staid and laidback breed. Your DS will get all the same benefits but the risk of failure will be reduced.

Update: have just finished having a long chat with Paul from Wiccaweys (thanks for that advice, QuietTiger). He suggested we should get an older dog so that we knew what we were getting. He was full of good advice and I now feel hopeful that we could get a Collie, provided it is the right personality for our household. I have put us down for a homecheck with Wiccaweys and am getting someone in to put a trellis up on our low garden wall. Then we will wait and see if a good match comes up .

DS1 is disappointed that he won't be getting a puppy and still has his heart set on a black-and-white Collie (Paul explained that there are all sorts of colours of Collies and it was the personality that mattered, not the colour), but I think he is coming round to the idea. He wants this to work out as much as - if not more than - the rest of us.

No reply from PAWS, sadly. Probably, the fact that DS doesn't have a diagnosis for ASD (at the moment) means they won't consider him. The advice would have been relevant to him though, I'm sure.

Anyway, we are making progress and certainly won't be going into this lightly. It is such a big commitment and it is so important that it works out well for us all.