Dog has bitten again. No idea what to do. Long, sorry.

[ComradeJing]

We have a 4 year old miniature schnauzer, S. We also have DD 17m and I'm 16w pg with dc2.

About two months ago I was out and DH was downstairs whilst DD was playing with S and the Ayi (local nanny type thing). DD grabbed S's fur and skin (short haired dog so pulling fur means pulling skin) and twisted. Not nastily but even though she is shown and told how to treat S she is a toddler and forgot. S, frankly understnadanbly, turned and snapped/bit her. She has a tiny scratch on her hand that didn't break the skin.

I didn't blame the dog and we were just extra careful after with dd and S to make sure both were happy and calm and S wasn't stressed out by DD and she was carefully supervised when around S.

Last weekend we took S for a walk which wa stressful for her. The retractable lead was, unknown to us before hand, not working properly and so S kept getting jerked back or forward on it or kept on a very short lead which she hates. When DH was holding the lead (and I was watching DD so not paying attention) the lead got wrapped around S's leg and then her neck. DH noticed when she sat down and when he untangled her, because it was so tangled (no I've no idea how it happened) it hurt her to untangle it. Dh was of course as gentle as possible. She hadnt been tangled for more than a few moments though. She was very upset and stressed out and probably didn't realize that it was the tangle hurting her and not DH.

When we got home we put her in the back garden, carried on walking for a bit and while we were out she managed to push through the fly screen and into the house. DH went to send her outside again because I had to Hoover before some guest arrived which she hates. When DH told her to go outside she went and hid behind something. He bent down to get her out and she properly went for him, growling and snarling and bit him.

Her reaction seemed VERY out of character. Apart from the bite mentioned above she has never gone for anyone before. I immediately called the vet and have put her into kennels as she has to be carefully watched over the next few weeks for rabies signs (we're in a rabies prone country) even though, of course, she has had her rabies jabs and to our knowledge hasn't been in any fights with other dogs. When the vet nurse arrived to collect her she also snapped at the nurse. Again, unlike her.

Now, we've spoken to the vet. They can try to rehome her but I have no idea how likely this is. They can euthanize her :( or we can take her back. The few local animal shelters either only take stray dogs or are full.

DH will support whatever I decide but I have no idea. If she ever really bit or hurt dd or the new baby I could never forgive myself but I feel like the choice could come down to keeping her (and maybe risking the kids) or putting her down. Long term kenneling just isn't an option either.

Any advice welcome and thank you for reading it all!

Could the vet do any other tests to see if it could be a medical issue? Failing that im afraid i would have to say put her down . Im very sorry to say, as i have a dog and love him like a son and would be crying my eyes out if i were in your shoes. But logical part of my brain would have to be listened to at this point. Your children need to be safe. Even if you keep her and vow to watch her and never have children in same room, it only takes a second to cause life changing damage.
Again im sure this is not what you want to hear, as i wouldnt. And i feel for you. So i send you a hug and hope things work out x.

So she snapped when someone twisted her skin. I'd snap, tbh. I bet it hurt!

Your DH bent over her when she was already stressed to make her go outside, basically cornering her. You then called a stranger to come and remove her from your house.

Did you give her any attention or reassurance between your husband trying to get her and the vet nurse arriving?

From your description, your dog has only reacted to defend herself. Not ideal with a young child around, but it sounds like you could all do with remembering how to treat dogs.

Lougle of course she was reassured after the bite. The vet nurse is well known to her too and she LOVES going to the vet and seeing the nurses. She was also fussed over and looked after after the lead got caught too.

I agree regarding dd grabbing her that most animals would snap over that. I think it's par for the course if you grab an animal and I remember being bitten by a cat when I was a little older than dd for the same thing. I mentioned it because it's still a bite, regardless of how it happened. However, just because I've not added even more detail to an already long post doesn't mean we are bad owners or don't care about her and I dont like the insinuation that we aren't treating her well.

Apart from having a dig do you have any actual advice for the situation I'm in now?

Thank you everyone for the advice so far. Please, keep it coming.

So both occasions that she has bitten it has been after she has been really hurt?

Would you not bite if you had been really hurt and it was your only means of protecting yourself? It's not surprising that she reacted as she did - for the entire walk, your husband - as far as she is concerned - had been hurting her. You know, he knows and I know that it was accidental - but a dog doesn't understand such things. All she knows is that he was hurting her the whole time.

They get back, she's cowering from him and snapping and snarling at him.

Well of course she is. Wouldn't you?

I understand that you cannot have a dog who bites, I get that. But what you have is a dog who defends herself when she is being hurt and was probably frightened of your husband because she doesn't understand that he didn't do this on purpose.

If she has never ever done anything like this apart from the time your daughter grabbed her and hurt her and the time your husband yanked her about and then half throttled her (I know that neither was an intent to hurt - but again I stress she is incapable of understanding that), then as well as rehoming her, you also have the option of rebuilding the trust if you feel that is possible. Lots of fuss, lots of training.

I don't think you're a bad owner who doesn't care about their dog.

Yes Hecate, that's also my feeling (which was why the OP was so long). Both times she bit she was stressed.

That's why I'm so torn about this. On the one hand she is still a dog that has bitten but on the other she was stressed when she did so. I truly don't blame her for biting dd that time. I also understand why she bit DH.

The other reason (bit of a drip feed but oh well) I'm worried is that rabies is common here. Two expats died in Beijing alone last year from pet bites and DH knew a man who died when his dog bit him some years ago. Now whilst we're religious about rabies vaccines (they also have to be vaccinated to be registered and then re registered yearly) I just can't stand the idea of losing a (human) family member because, rightly or wrongly, they were bitten.

Emotionally, I don't want to lose S, I don't want her put down but rationally I don't know if it's just too big a risk with little ones especially as I don't have any knowledge of this type of training.

I wasn't suggesting that you don't care about the dog. I'm suggesting that in your distress regarding the bites, you've overlooked the fact that your dog has only bitten when cornered or hurt.

Sorry. op, but your dog is a dog and has simply reacted like a dog does. I can't imagine though having a dog in a country with lots of rabies and small children. I dont think the dog has done anything wrong though.

I see there being a big difference between a 'bite' and a 'nip'.

I believe that any animal, no matter how well trained or obedient will nip either in fear or pain if provoked enough (I've seen an injured assistance dog do this!)

A bite is a different matter and is, in my opinion, an angry bite that draws blood.

Obviously, if your dog is aggressive and bites in anger, then action needs to be taken with the dog - your DC come first.

I have read a couple of threads on here recently discussing 'biting' dogs, where actually what happened sounds to me like a frightened/provoked nip.

If your (or any DC) provoke a dog and receive a nip, I think that is time to train both DC and dog how to behave around each other.

The thing is, if you rehome the dog, what you will be left with is a DC who still doesn't know/understand how to behave around a dog. This is a massive issue - your DC will encounter dogs all through their life and will need to learn how to treat them. Removing this particular dog won't solve the underlying issue and might in fact magnify it.

It never ceases to amaze me how many children run up to my dog squealing and pat his head (most dogs hate this) or try to hug him. Fortunately, mine is a placid and easy going chap so doesn't mind, but IMO, it will only be a matter of time before these DCs do it to a less than friendly dog and there will be a massive problem.

If your DC is too young to reliably treat the dog gently and respectfully, then keep them apart until they are.

I'm not for a moment dissing your parenting; it is obvious from your OP that you care and want to do the right thing, but I don't see that this is the dog's fault TBH.

Sorry OP, lots of x posts there

Thank you for the continued posts.

Cake, she did draw blood with DH.

I'd be looking for a Dog Whisperer type person.

I definitely wouldn't be looking for a 'dog whisperer' type, but a good behaviourist who uses positive base dmethods and doesn't believe in pack theory would be helpful. Is there anyone like that where you live?

I don't know much/anything about rabies, but has your dog also had the rabies titre as well as the vaccine to check she should be immune?

Quick update - someone who volunteers at some of the animal shelters and is a friend of the vet has offered to take her :)

So the choice is down to keeping her or this other person taking her. I'm so glad that putting her down is less of an option.

No, midori, she has not had the titre. The dr (not vet) told me the only way to check for rabies is a brain tissue test post euthanasia. Is this not the case?

I have no idea what the options are for training but in Beijing (where we were before) there was one English speaking trainer. I'll ask the vet though.

Great that someone will take her.

The rabies vaccination (in fact any vaccination) doesn't always make the dog immune. Hence, in the Uk if you are passporting your dog and having it vaccinated against rabies, you need to get the vaccine, then later on (not sure of the exact period of time, a month or so maybe?) get the dog blood tested to make sure the dog actually became immune to rabies. It won't tell you if your dog has rabies now sadly. Did your dog have this blood test done after the vaccine though? If so it migh toffer some reassurance.

That's not great OP, I guess you are in a better position to judge the 'nature' of the bite that we are.

I guess the point I'm making is that the only common denominator in your DD's (and Dc to be's) safety in relation to dogs will be themselves.

While you can remove this dog, you cannot remove all dogs (and in your situation, be certain of the temperament/rabies status of other dogs)

Personally, I think rehoming this dog would be treating the symptom, not the underlying problem. I would be seeing this as an opportunity to teach your DD how to behave around dogs, which is a vital life skill.

While we are on the subject, an extendable lead is not a great training tool - it means the dog can come and go on her own terms. A better option might be working on 'heel' walking using a shorter fixed lead.

I feel for you OP, this must be a horrible decision to make. I hope you come to the right choice for your family.

The risk of rabies after vaccination must be incredibly small, especially if OP has no reason to think her dog has been exposed to it.

We had a biting dog when I was a child; another culture, I hasten to add! She never snapped at anyone within the family, though. I had friends with nippy dogs & an uncle who owned a half wolf that bit children. I am not sure I could risk it myself, but it was ordinary back then for families to learn to live with it without thinking they were taking huge risks.

She sounds a rather stressed dog & I think I wouldn't risk keeping her if I couldn't get a behaviouralist in quickly. Not fair on her, most of all.

Sounds to me that it might be rabies. I knew someone whose dog turned and bit family members. It turned out to be rabies and the dog was pts and the family had to have injections.

Not to be scaremongering, but rabies does still occur in rural France, and I'm sure there are more cases in China.

Our dogs have the rabies vaccination, the blood test and then yearly boosters.

Since the dog bit dh, will he be getting any precautionary innoculations? Sorry to be so negative about this...

Red Herring? Really?

So what you are saying is that its ok for DC to mistreat dogs, then when they bite, the dog should be rehomed without any training given to the DC?

So what then? Get another dog, allow the DC to mistreat that one until it bites and then rehome it? Then what?

I do appreciate the fact that the OP is in the process of training her DD, but going by the information in the OP, this doesn't seem to have been fully effective yet.

I think its also worth pointing out that in Mainland China, Dogs have a very different place in society than they do here. Training and Socialisation are not seen as important as they are in our culture. It is very likely that OP's DD will encounter unsocialised dogs and it is imperative that she knows how to behave around them, especially if rabies is prevalent in the area.

By the way, I can't comment on the rabies status of your dog, but I doubt very much that this behaviour is a result of rabies.

The rabies virus has a variable incubation period (sometimes years) but from presentation of symptoms to death is usually about a week-10 days. If the first incident happened 2 months ago, I very much doubt it is rabies casing these behavioural changes.

I'm pleased you have found somewhere to humanely rehome the dog OP.

Cake, the reaction to dd sounds normal, but to dh and the nurse it sounds, well, strange and seriously ott.

Could just be situational, but wouldn't rule out a medical reason.

I agree with Flatbread completely. It absolutely not normal for any animal, or person for that matter, to lash out in fear, after being hurt by someone you trust for reasons unknown to yourself and then cornered on top of that despite giving clear stay away warnings.

T'is a very odd reaction .

I'm pleased your dog has a home now OP and sorry that you felt you had to make this choice.

Re the rabies serology, to be legal in the UK it has to be 3 months after vaccination. I got caught with this when my vets did my dogs pet passport years ago, I discovered it was invalid and had to spend hundreds of pounds sending a blood sample to the UK to be tested.

Just to update S has been rehomed. We're sad she's gone and won't be part of outlives but it feels like the right choice. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.