Bringing up two litter mates - pros and cons?

[Flatbread]

We are thinking of keeping two puppies from our girl. One male and one female. Anyone done this? What are the pros and cons?

I am not really worried about the bonding bit. We have known the puppies since they were born and they all have a strong bond with us.

I am worried about any potential problems with pack hierarchy. The two pups we are thinking about keeping are laid-back and gentle. But mum loves being our special girl, how will she react to our attention being divided among three, in the future? She already wants to come on our lap when we are cuddling the puppies and wants to eat the same food we give them...right now she cares and looks after them, but will all that change when they grow up, to a more competitive relationship?

Also issues of going to restaurants and holiday rentals with three dogs. We usually take our dog into pubs and restaurants and hotels/b&bs, pretty much everywhere with us in France. Do you think it would be inappropriate to go into public places with three dogs? Would we be considered the 'crazy dog people'? Would love to hear your experiences. Thanks.

A bad idea. You really should be worried about the "bonding bit". Obviously this will not show itself whilst they are still week old puppies.

Pack hierarchy is a load of rubbish so would not be a concern however three dogs living in one house will obviously need management depending on the temperament of the dogs.

I am not sure about pros and cons but there is no way in hell I would do this.

It makes bonding much much harder despite you saying that you aren't worried.

99% of good breeders would never let you have 2 litter mates. I know they are your puppies but if you were buying from a breeder they wouldn't let you get 2.

Someone I know took on 2 puppies. One is currently sat in the local rescue centre

Really really bad idea.

They will bond with each other, not you. Any training you master with them seperately will go out the window once they are together, that's if they pay you any attention in the first place.

I have an 18m Lab who is very well behaved and well trained, but that all goes out the window if we meet up with his sister who lives in the next villiage - and they don't even live together.

Pack hierarchy is a load of nonsense, so I wouldn't worry about that side of things but it really is a terrible idea.

not lookig good them flatbread........

Pack hierarchy between dogs is NOT nonsense...it IS bollocks when you try to apply it to human-dog interaction but where you have multiple dogs living togther, there is a hierarchy. Usually it's dictated by age and difficulties can arise when you have two of the same age that hit maturity at the same time and may fight for pecking order. This can be less of an issue with a dog and a bitch but that's not guaranteed. Just because 2 dogs are littermates and reared together doesn't mean that they won't fall out and fight for dominance. Such grudges can be lifelong and will only be managed by keeping them apart at all times or rehoming one.

Then there's the bonding thing, the additional training required to train them separately, then together, the time needed to give both the individual attention they need to ensure that they are properly socialised etc. There are very good reasons that responsible breeders don't sell two pups together. I know several breeders that have had to keep two pups at a time due to lack of suitable homes being found and they would all say that it's not something that they would ever do out of choice as it's bloody hard work and they feel that it's unfair to the pups and they end up being short-changed as, with the best will in the world, you cannot give two the same level of undivided attention that a single pup would benefit from.

OP, given the circumstance of the litter, if you do decide to keep two, please have one (or preferably both) neutered ASAP. Whislt it's not ideal to neuter young it's preferable to producing more unwanted pups, particularly from a sibling or mother-son mating.

Thanks. What about the mum being there, does that make a difference? Mum is really well trained and is pretty hands-on with training them at the moment. Does that change when they become adolescents? Do they stop following mum's example at a certain age...

What about all the stuff about our own social life? Our first dog just adjusted naturally and is impeccably behaved in restaurants and elsewhere (her evenings during the first few months were spent under the pub/restaurant table while I was having a laugh and wine with friends). And she was as quiet as a mouse, licked everyone hello and then promptly fell asleep at my feet. I know the two will be just as quiet and responsive to my cues. But would it be a social faux pas to take multiple dogs to public places?

While all the puppies are good-natured, the two I am considering are really quite exceptional in temperament. Hence i do want to give it serious consideration before making a decision. Thanks so much for your input.

Anecu, thanks for your input. All the dogs will be neutered. Mum as soon as we go back to France and the pup (or two) when they reach six months.

I know it is not ideal to neuter young, but if I do have a boy and girl I would do it asap.

But Anecu, people have multiple children, dogs have multiple pups. Why do they need so much individual attention? Our dog, in fact, could do with a lot less attention, as I tell my dh. The main thing is that they need to be obedient, well exercised and well socialised. The latter two can happen while they are together, and won't having the mum around help with the first?

These two pups can almost read my mind. I just have to say um, and they will immediately stop what they are doing. All the pups are reasonably well behaved in that they have't destroyed anything and have not tried chewing wires or slippers since I indicated it was out of bounds. But somehow, my heart aches at the thought of giving these two away.

You have really answered your own question re your social life.

One dog would adjust naturally and behave well in restaurants. The dog would see that the owner who the dog has bonded with is staying in one place. The dog would be calm and relaxed until owner asks for dogs attention.
However the new new scenario would be very different. Two puppies bored whilst you eat at a restaurant - try to play with each other, paw each other mouth each other etc it will be a totally different situation.

You could leave one pup at home each time to train each puppy individually but then would have to rush home to let out the puppy you have left behind. Take two puppies and it will be a nightmare and a huge ask for them to ignore each other while you have a drink and wine. If you wait until they are older you have missed the major socialisation window.

Also you say it is not a good idea to neuter young but obviously you would have to do this if you kept both - is it worth putting the dogs physical health at risk just because you want to keep two?

If you kept one dog the other dog could go to another home to be spoilt and become 100% bonded with an owner, who could also make the decision to neuter when the time is right for the dog not because of other circumstances

Snoopy, you are right, it is a selfish desire . Either one could happily fit with any family and would bond 100% with the or owner. Would probably require very little training too, as they are remarkably well-behaved, not due to me, but just naturally.

Oh bugger, you all are right

Why do they need so much individual attention? Well, they don't if you're happy for them to live as a pack of dogs. Mum will teach them canine manners. But, given that we expect pets to live as part of our home and society then they need to be taught the rules to give them the best chance of fitting in with what we expect of them. So, not toileting all over the house, listening to us rather than only looking to each other for behavioural cues (which 2 pups will automatically do) etc have to be instilled in them. And to stand any chance of success, you need to do that separately without the distraction of each other - their own kind will always be more entertaining to them, especially as pups.

To be honest, they're still at a fairly easy stage. The fun really begins when they hit adolescence and their training goes out the window and they start to push the boundaries. It's a difficult stage with any pup and is the principle reason that rescues are full of dogs aged 8 months -2 years...people just aren't prepared for it and can't understand what happened to the fluffy little bundle that used to follow them everywhere and aren't prepared to put in the work to re-establish the desirable behaviours. When you've 2 egging each other on, then it's obviously twice as hard. Or more.

Snoopy has put it better than me :)

AnEcu, they are already mostly toilet trained. And know to sit for their meals and if they want to be picked up for a cuddle.

But you are right, big girl went through a resistance phase at 9 months or so, and it was a pain. I was hoping that she would be able to help with recall (that was her main resistance at adolescence, she wanted to run after the deer and rabbits, not come back to me). And hopefully teach the pups to sit quietly in a restaurant, as she does.

But I think it is probably too much of a risk, and keeping two would be for my benefit, not the pups.

Oh ho.

I'll have one! they sound lovely

Oh, Nutter, they are darlings. Even Samuel, who is the naughtiest of the lot! When he sits down and asks for a cuddle, I can't help but melt...till he does something naughty again like reaching up for my mug of tea.

I think he will need a bit of a firm hand. But the ones I adore, are really easy-going. Just need to tell them once not to do something and that is it.

what actually are they flatbread? I have seen the pics but they look like golden labs. I seem to remember you saying they were some sort of Terrier though. Please tell me you live too far away for me to be tempted

Mum is a Basque sheepdog and dad is a golden retriever/lab mix. I found a photo of him running along with my dog and have put it on my profile. They are best friends and partners in crime.

and friends with benefits by judging by the resulting litter!

Yes . When I take her in to get spayed, I am so tempted to take Romeo and get him done too!

maybe they have a BOGOF offer!

I know it is the received wisdom not to have two from the same litter but sometimes on rescue sites you see two lovely dogs that need rehoming that are litter mates and have been together for 6 or 8 years - and they generally seem to be pleasant friendly dogs, obviously close to each other. I'd agree not advisable, but probably not impossibly difficult.

Interesting that you say that, Higgle. We talked with the behaviouralist at Dogs Trust and he said it really shouldn't be a problem keeping litter mates. Since they are of the opposite sex they should be neutered, but other than that, it is about setting boundaries and making them share things.

According to him, they will form their own loose hierarchies, e.g., one might be top dog regarding food, while another chooses the best sleeping spot. He said not to interfere or bother about that, as long as they know what behaviour is expected of them regarding walks, recall, manners at home etc.

So we are keeping two. I am so excited as I could not bear the thought of having to give one of 'my' two up! We took the others in today, and according to the DT, they will all be in their new homes within a week, after their vaccinations.

The two played madly, listened to me when I corrected them, sat nicely when they wanted cuddles, were corrected sharply by mum with growls and delicate bites, and now are curled up with her and sleeping (one wanted to come up to bed with me and I refused). Our family is complete

I am absolutely amazed and find it very hard to believe that a behaviourist would recommend keeping two puppies from the same litter. Can you pm his name or is that not the done thing on here. I would love to talk to him about this. Although if he is Dogs Trust I am sure I have dealt with him and it will not be hard to find out if you would rather not.

Of course there are occasions when it can happen BUT it is not ideal for the puppies and I really am astounded that a behaviourist would recommend this.

I agree totally with what he says about pack theory - he is basically saying there is not such a thing and that is spot on but wow I am very very surprised.

Can you tell that I am very very surprised

If you tell me a little bit about who you are Snoopy, I would be happy to pass along his details. To be clear the behaviouralist wasn't recommending that we should keep two, he was responding to my questions and concerns regarding keeping two litter mates.

The behaviourist said that as long as we neuter the dogs, are even-handed with all three dogs and give them stimulation and boundaries, they will be fine. Also, the character of the puppies matters and these two are easy-going, laid-back dogs.

As we speak, mum dog put junior in his place, the naughty critter. Lol, he has finally decided to calm down and sleep. The girl puppy is very gentle and well behaved and needs little correction.