Advice needed - 9 month old with food/resource aggression (sorry-long!)

[superdoodle]

I am struggling with my 9 month old cross (Retriever/Poodle) and need some objective opinions on what to do.

I should start by saying that he is in many ways a lovely dog. I never thought that I would say this but I am seriously considering at the moment whether I am able to keep him, due to safety concerns.

My Pup has received nothing but love and attention from us since he arrived at 8 weeks, but with hindsight I think he arrived with some "issues" around food. For example, he has never got excited when it is feeding time, and shows lots of nervous unhappy behaviour around his bowl, such as his tail between his legs etc.

He first showed aggression with food at around 5 months, when he would growl and bark if given "high value" food such as chicken etc.

I took advice from my trainer who recommended a citronella collar - bad mistake! It made his anxiety far worse and has escalated the problem in my opinion.

So I took the pup to our vet, and asked for a referral to a behaviourist. She has done a home visit and set out a programme to follow to try and reprogramme the pup's anxiety issues around food. I've been following the programme for approximately 4 weeks.

The trouble is this......pup is now showing the same aggressive behaviour around other random items, such as particular toys or usually anything he has got his teeth on that he wants to keep and shouldn't have. I used to feel in control of the issue as I could prevent it by not giving any "high value" food, but it now seems that the aggression can be triggered by many different (and unpredictable) items.

I'll be totally honest here. I find his behaviour frightening.

I am also worried about my children. I am prepared to continue to put the time and effort into the programme but it could take many months to show results. This really worries me. He's a very large and powerful dog. I shudder to think what would happen if he is set off by one of my kids and I can't intervene quickly enough to avoid a disaster.

Don't know what to do really. I do my very best to control the pup's environment to minimise the aggression, but real life means that these situations seem to be flaring up more and more frequently.

In RL most people I know think that I have done everything possible, but should not take the risk of pup harming my DC.

I never thought that I would consider re-homing any pet, let alone a dog that is much wanted in our family.

What would you do?

Minimuu, I am not really challenging you, but just trying to get my common sense instincts to tie-in with the latest science on dog behaviour. (And of course, same with lots of parenting techniques and books)

See, in my mind, there are all sorts of reasons why a dog might be on guard, and depending on the reason, a particular solution or combination of approaches would work.

If the dog is new to the house, or an adopted adult, I can see why it might be unsure and resource guard till it understands and trusts the owners. In this case, the rewarding, treats make perfect sense.

But if the dog has been in the family since it was wee thing, and starts resource guarding many months later, it seems to be more of a testing of boundaries and trying to understand it's place in the family structure.

Now if the dog gets treats of higher value, then of course it will diffuse the situation as the dog is getting something better in exchange. Why would growl or challenge the owner?

Something like, my child throws a tantrum and I buy it a doll, or my child doesn't want to share toys, and I bribe the child to share by giving it a better toy. Sure, it will put a stop to the tantrum and stop the 'inappropriate behaviour'. But if it is not coupled with disciplining the child and teaching it to respect the parent, might it not lead to different manifestations of the same underlying problem down the road?

Flatbread I don't care if you are challenging me - you views are based on personal opinion, not science, they are not educated just an old fashioned v outdated opinion. The only reason I slightly care is that you have a dog and for your dogs sake it would help if you understood how dogs learn.

This is not the latest science on dog behaviour it has been around for manay decades. -

You say "in your mind there are many reasons a dog may guard" good job you are not a dog then! Dogs guard because they want something of high value end of. No wanting to "test their owner" no wanting to dominant the world" no wanting to "test the boundaries"they just want to keep the bone.

So to let the dog know the bone is safe and not about to be stolen - if you give them something of higher value they will not worry about you approaching to remove the bone. The bone is removed, the dog is relaxed noone has growled, noone is bitten - you must be really odd if you can not see the point in that.

But some reading for you

karen Pryor don't shoot the dog
How dogs learn (this is vital for you to read as you do have very old fashioned views on dog training) Howell reference books
Dominance theory and dogs James Oheare.

sorry for spelling etc I am sat in the sun with all my dogs at an agility competition and guess what not one of these dogs is trying to dominate their owners

I read the link you had earlier about Fido. I found it quite frankly a childish strawman example. No one is saying correct a dog for not heeling by removing their food! That is not the problem op is facing either. Her dog is resource guarding everything he fancies, whether it is bones or toys.

I see your point, it is not rocket science. But I think what you are doing is rewarding guarding behaviour, of course no dog or child will kick up a fuss of their every wish is granted. Your approach may be to ply the dog with sweets and goodies no matter what, so it 'likes' you. Of course they will stop guarding as long as you reward them just as a child will not throw a tantrum as long as its wishes are fulfilled.

I think that rewards and discipline go together. Setting boundaries and expecting good doggie manners such as sitting and waiting for their food is hardly controversial, and is just common sense. My dog is doing really well and is happy and secure in her family, thanks. The point here is to help the op.

I just don't understand why the doghouse is such a vitriolic place. There are loads of ways of bringing up dogs as they are children and and one giant bag of sweets for all problems is hardly the answer.

Disagree, that is fine. I have told the op my experience when my pup growled and how I resolved the issue. You may do it differently. Live and let live. A forum is just about providing different experiences, no need to make snide comments about my dog.

Btw, in my PhD field, there is very little consensus on anything. The joke is you put 10 resource economists in a room and you will get 10 different, often conflicting theories. Surprised that there is such universal agreement in yours...suspect it is more do do with your blinkers than the field as such.

Anyway, I am outta here. OP, hope you find a workable solution for your problem, best of luck.

Don't you read anything or do you just carry on with your own opinion taking no notice what other people write? Your poor dog and puppies

Love the way you find Fido link childish - only comes from one of this countries very knowledgeable dog trainers but I am sure Flatbread knows better .

The dog house is not a vitriolic place however it does have some knowledgeable people who do know what they are talking about - if you choose to ignore that and refuse to listen to educated professional people - they will get a little narked by your ignorance and refusal to listen. Nothing wrong in not knowing but very small minded not to want to learn.

see ya

Minimu and Flatbread-- This topic is for soliciting a range of opinions, both "expert" and anecdotal experiences. Any of these (or a combination of) may be helpful to the OP. Just like parenting...there's no "one size fits all" method that works for everyone. Dogs are all so different. You could both be "right". Just a thought?

I don't have any expert advice or experience but it sounds like you need to get the behaviourist back to your home to help you sort things out. I'd be worried too. Good Luck

The problem is this. Different trainers and behaviourists have different ideas on what works. In this case, Minimuu is a qualified and very experienced behaviourist, Flatbread is a single dog owner, unless you also count her back yard bred puppies. Of course, both could have valid experiences.

However, evidence shows that using pack or dominance theory or rank reduction methods on dogs can have 'side effects' for the dog and can result in the owner getting bitten. Or worse. They often result in a dog that is shut down. That means that on the surface, to the inexperienced eye, they may seem calm, quiet and well behaved, but actually they just aren't reacting at all any more. A joint press release was made some time ago by various UK and USA veterinary and animal welfare organisations to point out the dangers of using such theory or methods in dog training. It is an animal welfare isuue.

On the other hand, evidence also shows that not only are there no negative effects on the dogs using positive training methods, but it's possible to get far more out of the dog using them. Hence, all those dancing dogs and agility/obedience champs being trained using them.

It's simply not responsible on an Internet forum to suggest any methods which may result in an owner, or in this case their children, being bitten.

Using the method Minimuu suggested will not only solve the problem the OP has, it will do so without the OP risking a bite to herself or her children.

What is supposed to be wrong with giving a dog treats? And how is making the dog sit and wait before getting food not rewarding it (with food) for a good stay?

The guarding behaviour isn't getting rewarded. In the first stage it is being ignored (no attempt is made to remove the item the dog is guarding).

Flat, any field has issues on which there is disagreement and it takes more research to resolve it. But any field also has points on which there is wide agreement. The alpha/dominance stuff is just outdated and wrong.

The John Bradshaw book that you know of (In Defence of Dogs) is research-based and not childish. I am waiting for you to read it and come back and chat about it :) because I think you will enjoy it.

Yeah and the behaviourist will say what minimu does, at least a good one will. That is the difference between a trainer with both learning and experience versus a pet owner with comparatively little of either. How many dogs was it you have helped over this issue again minimu?

I have had eight rescues, five giant breed ones whilst having children. Have had assorted visitors too doing foster time here I think they have all manifested this behaviour at some point occasionally with spectacular force. The cure as outlined is so successful that non of them had a long term problem. In fact I have photos of twelve stone dogs sharing bones whilst the children are playing feet away, dogs I couldn't have given bones to a year earlier...

My dogs could eat me, they could do enormous damage to someone trying to prove themselves boss so I vote with the proven techniques:)

The only dog I wanted to keep and felt I couldn't never growled just attacked without a pause, growling is just communication. I think op that actually the behaviour you have met is common place. You probably thought your dog would always be gentle and cute if well treated but maybe you forgot it is a dog...youthful, hormonal and still easily trainable.

Just to add, I completely agree that growling is not only a method by which dogs can communicate, but a good thing. How else are they supposed to tell you they don't like something? Blink their eyes 5 times and hope you notice? (they already have ways of showing us they don't like things before they growl and as we are humans, we miss most of them)

I accept that sometimes my dogs may not like something. They are allowed to have likes and dislikes, why wouldn't they be? However, if they did feel the need to growl, I would ask myself what it was they weren't happy with and how I could change that so they were happy. I wouldn't consider for one second that they were behaving badly or agressively. Growling is simply communication in the same way tail wagging, ear pricking/lowering etc is.

A dog that doesn't growl is potentially extremely dangerous. These are the dogs that people say bite 'without warning'.

OK ladies a quick update on today's events....

My dog stole a tub of butter from the work surface in the kitchen today whilst my back was turned...and immediately started the guarding behaviour of growling and then barking/snapping if I moved towards him.

I was unfortunately trapped with no means of escape, as the dog was between me and the exit route! You have to laugh really - I had to call my husband (who was also in the house) on my mobile, and ask him to ring the outside bell to distract the dog long enough so I could "escape".

On one hand it's really quite funny (if you have a certain sense of humour), but on the other hand quite alarming. My DH is not happy with the situation and is muttering darkly about not being a prisoner in our own home etc.

Anyway, the interesting point is this. I happened to have some sausages in the microwave when the dog seized the butter. I tried throwing some of these towards the dog, but he was totally uninterested and was completely focused upon the butter and just kept growling etc.

Do you think that this attempt was unsuccessful because he needs something even tastier and more "high value" than sausage?

Yes. Clearly you were in the wrong and you need to have a "higher value" treat to hand at all times. Next time try throwing him a live rabbit or hamster or perhaps a freshly butchered pheasant. That should sort things out.

Ah yes - will have to keep a supply of freshly butchered meat on my person at all times! Must add that to my shopping list.....

And jokes aside, yes the butter was too good. Remember start with liver cake whilst he has a toy or summat don't jump straight to the juicy bone or butter tub.

Does the plan your trainer put in place read like minimus?

Can I throw something into the mix ? I have a rescue dog (18mths, had her 4 weeks) All going well BUT she is exhibiting similar traits but with my cat. My cat is very greedy & comes running as soon as I giving dog her food. That's about ok. However, if cat miaows at me - opening the fridge, to say hello, just for the sake if it, dog is on alert, the lips snicker, a bit of growling (which I mindful of not correcting) & then a full blown rah rah RAH.

I can take her food, but she likes to hold her toys.
Have pm minimuu btw.

Anyone ?

Willow I'm not sure what you are asking. You could try the resource-guarding advice given by Minimuu above. How does the cat come into it, is the dog guarding from the cat, or are you worried that the dog will attack the cat? Do you need a way of teaching the dog how to behave around the cat?

Two things leap out at me most.

1. Minimuu how do you stay so calm and reasonable?

2. OP - what sort of absolutely STUPID "trainer" told you to use a Citronella collar???

Redwing, the cat comes into the kitchen, dog trots over to me, then inches in very close & sort of 'guards'. Now am assuming it's me. It's been suggested that dog is afraid of cat. We've had a few barks, the same barks the she does at big dogs who dont get the msg that she doesn't want to play.

Last nigt both were on the bed with me...dog on bed, near the end, cars plonks herself in my arms, dog is anxious/possessive/not relaxed & squashes herself on to me, so reassure her. Move her back, she sighs/yawns relaxes.

So it only seems to be in the kitchen & i am wondering if food related ?

Willow, I'm not sure of giving advice because I'm not sure I understand why the dog is barking. Maybe Minimuu will have time to offer some suggestions. One of my dogs sometimes barks at the cats. It's a play bark but I always intervene and ask the dog to do something else (usually a sit or a down because he can do that when distracted), otherwise the next thing will be that he starts chasing them, which I don't want to encourage (even in play). In your case though it doesn't sound like play, more like the dog is coming to you for protection.

thanks for reply

Its interesting because a man came into our house today (for a job) & doggie went rushing off to the door, she took one look at him & didn't like him (bad memories?) Anyway, he crouched down to say hello & she had a bit of a cower & a rah rah bark again, then she came to me & sat down in front of me. Now, I could think she was either protecting me or I was to protect her ?
My point is, the behaviour to the man was similar to her response to my cat.
She doesn't chase her - it's about the miaowing & also if cat tries to eat dogs food (I try to get it up but she isn't a great eater at the mo)

Your dog is just uncertain of the cat and also the man. You need to get socialising the dog more and more to get her used to all these situations.

Re the cat: when the cat is around the dog click and treat the dog, make the assoiciation with the cat a positive one.

Do not force the dog into situations that she is uncomfortable but do let the dog experience many different sitatuations

I have read this thread with interest, and Willow - your dog is reacting the same way that mine was a few months back.

Mutt is a lovely dog, but all of a sudden started being nervy and growling /barking at strange situations, people and sounds. I was starting to get seriously worried - we have a lot of children on our street plus Mutt comes to work with me so is around people all the time - I didn't want her to get the reputation of a growler/biter.

I posted on here and was answered by DBF (so it was before the ban!). She suggested a behaviourist straight away.

The behaviourist that I spoke to gave EXACTLY the same advice as minimuu (hell, just realised I could have had this advice for free, dammit!). Basically distracting the dog with treats whenever she growled. I had been telling Mutt off and making things worse

I got straight onto it, using cheese (her absolute fave).After about a week I could see an improvement, at which point I swapped the cheese for fuss (possibly a mistake - I didn't really understand 'treat training' then, so worried about Mutt getting fat).

I kept it up for about a month, lots and lots of fuss every time she tried to 'defend' me. Now, months on, the only time she barks is at the doorbell - and that I am happy with. She will still show some signs if we are in a new situation (ie she will come straight over to me) but she doesn't growl anymore and her human friends aren't scared of her.

I think perseverence is the key OP and Willow and I for one can recommend the advice given to you by minimuu.

Thanks all, just to point out she is a rescue dog on case that was missed.
I do socialise her, we walk to school so she passes many chidden, is passed by cars, bus, bikes etc. We go yo the park where we meet other dogs, she doesn't play but isn't aggressive. We walk in the woods & see other dogs. In the afternoon at school pick up she is normally greeted by my 2 dc + their friends.

I'm not sure how I can socialise her more ? Oh & we've had friends over ;men too !) & she's been absolutely lovely with them. I think the guy reminded her of her old home where she may have been hit with rolled up paper. (info from foster mum). She has been all lovely & waggy with neighbours & in laws.

I will buy a clicker later today & get treats ready for when I cook later tonight.

The man that came (doing something in our garden) did make friends with her eventually (forgot to add) & he'll be coming back next week, so will be interesting to see how she reacts.

Willow, there is a fact-sheet here on how to help dogs who are afraid of strangers. It's what Minimuu said, basically, but you might find it helpful, and also this blog post by Sophia Yin on socializing puppies. I know yours isn't a puppy but it will give you some ideas of how to socialize the dog better.

Also, for fun, you might be interested to read this by Stanley Coren on how to interpret dogs barking.

Good luck and have fun with the clicker!

thanks - just about to order my clicker for training

She isn't afraid of strangers per se - afterall, since she has lived with us for only a month, everyone has been a stranger & everything has been strange. I don't think she was walked along (busy) roads & she doesn't play with dogs, although she did live with one. Apparently she used to grumble at the other dogs if they tried to eat her food at the foster home.

I've reminded my DH that the growling isn't aggressive & we need to treat to avoid confrontation & show her cat is ok.