4yo rescues, still not house-trained after a year with us :-(

[SnapSnafu]

We got our lovely but damaged and nervous with humans S a year ago, he's about 4 probably, a collie cross. And then 6 months ago we got L, who was supposedly rehomed for eating chickens (which I'd believe) but has clearly been badly treated too. She's also about 4. Both neutered.

Both of them will pee and/or poo in the house when left alone, even when we're in another part of the house. This is particularly true of S. So, I'll go to put the kids to bed, and L will wee in the living room if I've not closed the door. S won't come in the living room (well, he'll come in if called but goes straight back out), and spends the evening in his open crate in the kitchen. He will wee and poo there.

I crate them at night, because there was poo and wee every morning. They share a large crate, and are quite happy in it. I haven't been crating them when left in the day, a couple of times a week for up to 4 hours, as they were doing all right then, but this last 2 weeks this has escalated from one wee, to umpteen plus poo while I was out. So I think I'm going to have to crate them when I'm out too (or should I just crate him, S, as I think he's mostly to blame). I'd rather not crate them in the day, because they're crated at night.

But it's driving me mad. This morning, having been already out in the garden, I came back upstairs while the kids watched TV, and L came upstairs with me. S weed and sloppy pooed all over the kitchen floor (wee in about 4 places). Now, it was sloppy, so looks like his tummy's upset, which is unusual, but still.

So. How do I get them to not wee and poo all over the house? They don't ask out, and have great capacity not to wee and poo in the crate (only happens there if L has an upset tummy - she's more delicate than him apparently and a scavenger). All the stuff I've read on training is aimed at young dogs who don't have the capacity to hold on. This isn't about that. Mostly I think it's anxiety/marking/something like that. For example, I feed them outside because they always wee straight afterwards, and do it wherever they are - S is prone to doing it in the food bowl sometimes too.

Finally, to avoid drip-feeding, they day-board 1 day a week at a lovely kennels, because I'm out for 10 hours. S seems happy with this, while L hates getting out of the car, desperate to get back to me. She is a velcro dog, to me (and I have another issue with that, but will post separately). I also think she doesn't like the noise, and is very sensitive to gunshot noise (where we live you hear a lot of gunshots, rural not urban!).

Many thanks for ploughing through! Feeling at the end of my tether about it today, as I have a sick kid too and am on my own with them for a few weeks.

You will probably have to start from scratch. What do you clean the mess up with? Biological soap powder has enzymes which will break down the smell. Simple Solution from pet shops does the same kind of thing. It is really important to get rid of all traces of smell. Normal cleaning fluids don't cut it. It may help to take them out one at a time to do their stuff, on a lead. When they've done what they need to do, lots of lavish praise and treats if you use them, or even a game. You will need to take them out at regular intervals at the start. Dogs are quite able to hold stuff in.
Have you taken them to the vet to check that all is well medically? there is loads of house training information out there, and probably someone with more experience than me will be along soon!

I agree with EasytoEatTiger (I like the name!) that you need to start from scratch. Although they are adult dogs and know how to hold it, they are confused about the rules.

Not sure about the gunshot noise, but if you or DH have any video games that involve shooting, you can probably use that to get the dog used to them, i.e. start with very low volumethat gets no reaction from the dog, and gradually turn it up over time. Do it very slowly so that he doesn't get startled, otherwise you'll be back to square one.

You need to attack this from several angles. Firstly, the recent sloppy poo could be a sign of illness and I would get this checked out by a vet. This week, all our three dogs have gone down with a tummy bug and we've had several accidents in the house, as they just couldn't get to the door in time, bless them. Make sure you are on top of worming,once they are recovered and have them checked out for giardia (you will need to take a sample into the vets ).

Have a review of feeding, both what you feed and when you feed. It is highly unusual for an adult dog to willingly poo or pee in their sleeping/living accommodation - this suggests either that they are VERY stressed or that there is a real physical problem. I have known a number of dogs who have had problems with pooing in the house simply because their food was causing problems. Common causes are kibbles or foods containing lots of cereals, but you may need to work out if your dog has an allergy or sensitivity to certain foods. I'd also be looking at what time you feed - usually you can work out the "transit time" so can work backwards.

Yes to thorough cleaning with appropriate cleaning materials. Might be worth also investing in a steam mop for hygiene.

With housetraining, I would go right back to basics, and also make this a much more routine thing - many dogs like and thrive on a routine. Take them out the garden on getting up, and every two hours right through as well as after meals. Praise lavishly and treat whenever they perform outside. If this is working, you can then drop down to about three hours. The key is to allow them to build up a routine and to associate peeing and pooing outside with rewards and treats - they will quickly get the message. Don't, whatever you do, shout at them if you find an accident in the house. This will just make them stressed, confused and frightened.

Lastly, I would probably rethink the kennel, at least for the time being. While in the kennel they will be weeing and pooing freely in an area that is close to their sleeping accommodation and is effectively indoors - this will be sending out a very confusing message while you are training on this issue. I'd consider either getting a dog walker in that day, or using a home boarder who can reinforce the routines you are using.

Good luck

We had a similar problem with a rescue dog.
It turned out he had a severe undiagnosed bladder infection.
The vet said she had never seen anything like it.

He isn't perfect now but is much much better - has perhaps one accident a week instead of several each day.

We do have to be vigilant and put him outside on a regular basis.
He is crated when left at home (only for two hours at the most)
He rarely has an accident in the crate- if he is left free he always wees.

His actual bladder control is underdeveloped as he usually needs to go out at about 3am - this is after having been let out before we go to bed.
Luckily he comes and wakes DH

Thank you, lots of nice replies.
Sorry, I must have misled, as there is no wee/poo in crate, which is one reason I don't think there is a physical cause. The sloppy poo is most likely that she eats hen food if she can get too it, etc, and it doesn't agree with her! Did have a stool sample done first time, all clear. Worming always up to date, do it monthly as they do reinfect.

I haven't found that taking out regularly helps, I mean I do do that anyway, it's a stress/marking thing. For example, I can take them out to garden, they perform, bring them in, go upstairs leaving them down for 10 mins, and come down to a wee.

Games - he had no idea how to play when we got him, but now loves balls and sticks, so we are trying to teach him to play fetch and drop, but this has the potential to stress him too! This is a dog that had to be led out of his crate by lead for the first month that we had him. I tried to get him to sit in the living room with me yesterday, comes through happily, but scratched to get back thru to his crate.

For her, I think I def need to get her working and get a new hen feeder that she can't get into/ doesn't spill.

Just to clarify, when I said "end of my tether" I meant I really need to sort this out, not anything else. These dogs are brilliant, we love having them, and the changes we've seen are amazing, especially in him. He gained a lot of confidence when we got her, that's the first time he picked up a ball and became playful off-lead. I feel she is still finding her feet with us, but is a really lovely dog.

I realise that the kennel day may confuse, but there is no other affordable solution for this. We're very rural, and the only dog walkers here (who I used to day board him with when we had one) can't fit us in on that day. Though I could maybe try to find a retired villager, say, who might do it. Will think on that.

Steam mop also sounds a good idea!

Routine does go down well esp with him, but whiles dh is away I have to fit walks etc round family routine, and this varies day to day. Always manage 2 good walks a day though, and we have a big garden.

I have no advice, but just wanted to say how lucky these dogs are to have you. I'm sure you'll sort it :)

This works but it is tough to do: the dogs are either with you or outside or in their crate. That way they have no opportunity to pee/poo when unobserved. I had to resort to tying myself to one dog that would just pee as soon as you looked away (luckily she is a small dog so she couldn't pull me over!). Two weeks of this and she was a reformed character!

Booboo, that's effectively what I'm trying as of yesterday, but it means a lot more time in crate, but for the short term hopefully. I've left him in crate and her out while I'm out for a bit today, as I think he's the main offender, will find out. But 1 only in crate gives him more space too.

I give them kongs. And leave toys and she likes the tugajug, but he won't go near anything except kong, so nothing to occupy him.

And I'm going to try to work her more, perhaps him too, but as he's not food-oriented and only just learning to play, he's hard to work with.

I think you're right that it's a stress/separation anxiety thing, not a continence issue or house-training as such. With that in mind, I wonder if you need to go right back to basics with building up the time alone - if you currently can't leave them even 10 minutes without risk of 'accidents', it'll mean going right back to literally going out and coming straight back in, and building up the time really slowly.

You've probably already tried this, but it's all I can think of right now! I do hope you get it sorted, one of mine was the same at first, though fortunately things improved after a few weeks when he'd settled. Not fun cleaning up poo and wee all the time, I know :(

Agree the dogs are lucky to have found such loving patient owners!

More time in the crate should not be a problem as long as they have good walks/exercise in between and don't spend long chunks of time in the crate without respite. Chews, kongs, etc. are a great idea, they should help a lot!

Good luck and keep at it!

Booboo, that's pretty much what we had to do.
Reading this thread and writing about SmallDog has made me realise how far he has progressed - when we had him if somone walked past the house or knocked on the door he would wee everywhere

With regard to the crating when we are out I felt really mean until DH pointed out that while we are out all our dogs have ever done is sleep and wait for us to come home. We are just making sure he is safe and stays clean during that time.

SmallDog now loves the crate and goes in happily. If we go out BigDog and one of the cats go into the same room as the crat and stay with him

Your dogs sound lucky t have you - good luck

Aw thank you all, though I don't always feel very patient!
It had got a lot better, so I suppose a lapse isn't so surprising.
As PantryBoy's dh says, S rarely walks about anyway when I'm in with him.

L's in her bed just now with the tugajug and S is standing over her watching!

In the beginning, we couldn't leave him home alone, we used to take him with us in the car everywhere as he was quite happy there, and luckily we got him in January. As it warmed up, we got him used to being alone.

Thanks all, will report on progress!

Actually, sorry, this sounds a bit dripfeedy, the deterioration has happened while my dh has been away (but he goes away a lot, and this hasn't happened before), and my youngest daughter often regresses in her toileting while he's away, so I'd been cleaning her up too, and then 2 of the girls have been sick too over the last week... Sunday morning felt like the last straw! But that's kind of good, because I'm tackling it now.