Odd (?) behaviour from a newly RAW fed dog...

[BehindLockNumberNine]

Last week we moved Sam, our whippety lurcher with a history of digestive problems, onto RAW food.
It was a scary step, taking him off the vet-prescribed Royal Canin but I digress..

Right, he is happy with the pre-packaged mush, atm he is on the frozen pellets made by Nature's Menu, eats it happily and poos are formed and pick-up-able (the latter being a particularly pleasing development!)

Five days ago we introduced chicken wings, as a snack / light lunch type of meal (he needs to be on four smallish meals per day). The initial one he licked for a while whilst I held onto it but after a few he got the hang of crunching them and I would just give him one and leave him to it in the garden.
For the past three days he has burried the wing and then ignored it for anything up to a day, after which he digs it up, shakes the mud off it and runs around the garden with it, a sort of trophy lap, before settling down and eating it.

He has had no ill effects from this soil-additive to his food so am not overly worried. However, is this 'normal'? Is he suddenly harking back to some instinctive hunter-gatherer instinct?

Am not worried, more bemused and wanted to share...

Worth bearing in mind, as Sam is pooing 4 times a day, that Natural Instinct prepared foods, ie chicken contain 20% fruit and veg which will increase poo frequency, volume and mushyness.
Also yoghurt and cheese not natural food for dogs. They don't produce the enzyme lactase to digest dairy and the probiotics in yoghurt are specifically for human guts so won't help a dog's gut flora.
Dogs have a different kind of digestive system to us - shorter gut so unable to digest carbs, fruit veg etc. and much stronger stomach acid to digest bones.

He is not on the natural instinct yet. He is on four meals a day, so I am equating that with four poos a day. So long as they are solid that is a massive improvement on how they were...

Thank you, I take on board what you have said. But Sam's guts are not quite back to full health, so I don't yet know what he can and can't digest regarding bone. Hence the taking it easy and introducing them slowly.

And whilst I appreciate that dogs cant digest fruit adn veg, giving a carrot will make doggle think he has had a treat and it will be better for him than say a Bonio. And as treats are the way our training works (and getting a whippety dog recall trained can take some doing) I am happy to give him whatever he can have.

And the probiotics in the yoghurt have in the past helped to stop his diarrhoea so am happy that that helps...

And many people have said it helps their dog, it is recommended on various dog forums I visit and there seem too many success stories for me to discount it...
Also, cottage cheese adn yoghurt are considerably lower in lactase, the dairy protein which most dogs struggle to digest. Most dogs, not all dogs according to my vet. Many dogs are perfectly capable of digesting small amounts of dairy, especially diary with a low lactase content. Therefore, unless a dog is fully lactose intolerant (resulting in loose bowels when ingesting dairy) a dog can still have some foods with a low lactase content (cheese, cottage cheese, yoghurt) and be able to digest these quite well.

easy way to make treats is to get liver - cover in water and boil gently till cooked throughout, dry off on kitchen roll then cut into strips and put on a baking tray and then cook for say 20mins in the oven on a low heat. very good for training treats and very non smelly or nasty to stick in your pocket for walks.

adding veg is just a way of adding more calories and bulk cheaply. them calling that the prey model reeks of bs i'm afraid. none of their prey would've been made up by 20% bulky root veg carbs.

oh and the liver business - so far as i knew you should never give a whole meal of liver or any other offal. i just add a little to his breakfast most days. would never give a whole meal of it.

Yes, that is next on my list, the lady from natural instincts said dried liver (she flavours the one for her dogs with a bit of garlic) is a good treat.

Need to go grocery shopping tomorrow, will look up liver.

pigs liver is the cheapest and is fine.

the prices at natural instincts (even aside from the fact there is nothing natural about the diet they promote) are a total rip off. he gets on with the chicken so feed him chicken - if you want him to have veg then cook a little bit extra with dinner to give him.

We've tried most varieties of liver and dog loves them all but extra enthusiastic and well behaved when chicken livers on offer. I follow the 5% of total intake guideline and dry 2 wks supply at a time (rinse well, cut into small pieces and dry in oven at 30C overnight) then give small amount most days as training treats.

But I can't just give him chicken wings / chicken legs can I? Is that not too much bone?
And the cost of chicken (other than wings / legs) is extortionate...

Pigs liver - will Sainsbury have this?

I have to make friends with a butcher don't I??

Dh reminded me that we used to feed our old dog raw. And he had yoghurt, fruit, veg, cheese. Definately not purely meat / bone. And he thrived!

Also, 100% protein would be too much for Sam right now. Whilst his guts are healing (his entire intestinal lining was shed during his illness, we don't know how much of this he will be able to regrow) he cannot have 100% protein as a) the fat content would be too high even with low fat meats such as chicken and b) the enzymes that allow a dog to digest raw meat live in / come from (vet did explain but it was all a bit much to take in) the intestinal lining.

Which in Sam's case is not yet fully regrown (and there may always be gaps filled with scar tissue apparently)

I am doing what I feel is best for Sam, and his particular case.

I am taking advise from many different sources, weighing it up, comparing it and making a decision based on what I feel is right for my dog right now.

I accept that others have their own ideas on what dogs should / can / must / should not / can't / must never eat.

But Sam is Sam, he was on the point of death, two vets advised he was to be pts. If he thrives on the natural instinct, then he thrives. And that is good enough for me.

Lock I've come across the "prey" model several times. We also feed the blocks from AMP, along with a selection of their frozen tripe beef mince, tripe mince etc. I think it's important dogs get a variety of foods - so as well as these, there are also the occasional tins of sardines or pilchards, scrambled egg, cooked rice, roasted pumpkin, leftover pasta or veggies, chicken wings and even the odd Bonio. Liver is a treat but it does have an effect next day so we feed small quantities and not too often. We looked at Natural Instinct when moving over to raw, but for three large pointies it simply wasn't affordable. However, I see nothing at all wrong with the various similar products on the market, particularly when moving over to a raw type diet. They offer an easy, convenient and palatable way of feeding your dog a good nutritious mix of food. Given Sam's previous history, you are right to go gently on this and to find a food that agrees with him.

Thank you Scuttle

Was becoming bogged down and worried I was doing it wrong.

Don't think we will give up bonios alltogether, he loves them too much

And I agree, a variety is what is needed. He is doing well so far, on chicken wings and some nature's menu frozen nuggets from PAH.

Uhm, what are the next-day aftereffects of liver treats? Shall I invest in plastic sheeting or clothes pegs for our noses??

Just for info - you can get 2kg bags of frozen meat from PAH, chunks or mince, cheaper than Natures Instinct and nothing added to it. They do green tripe which smells ghastly but dogs love it and very digestible.

I know uptown, thank you. but sam needs stuff added to it, pure meat is too much for now.
I used to feed those bags to my old dog and add things to it. but i was a sahm at the time with a healthy dog.
now i work p/t, have a dog with potentially lifelong healthconcerns and am not in the best place myself healthwise.
So the premixed is fine. Actually find it not too expensive after months of feeding him veterinary prescribed Royal Canin...

And raw tripe is an absolute no no regarding his health right now... Will introduce it later, at some point, as and when we can. We fed it to our old dog - the smell was unbelievable!! (and once we bought three bags but only brought two into the house. Left car in the sun on driveway for a few days. I cannot describe what we found when we discoved the bag... Oh my words, I don't think dh ever got over it...)

Thank you all for your input

Sorry, ignore me, was confusing tripe with the richer offal. Yes, tripe is good, it is on my list...

(if I can get past the smell and learn to count bags in and out of the car efficiently...)

I buy cheapest value chicken wings/thighs & occasionally quarters for a meatier meal.

My butcher will save chicken carcasses which she loves (so do I....free!)

Also get pet mince from another butcher in big bags of 5/6 individual packs of about 500g for about £2. It is human grade meat, all the offcuts from trimming the meat including some offal and bone ground down so a good variety, each batch is different.

Occasionally an egg, a bit of mixed in raw veg if she seems a bit constipated but she loves her food now where she looked bored with kibble & often left it mid meal.

Am at the thought of tripe left in the car!!!

That must have been quite something.

Ours love tripe (we get the frozen packs) but I hate serving it - the smell is vile. It even makes the bin honk when you put the plastic bag in so now I tend to take it straight out to the wheelie bin.

It is unbelieveably smelly... but my old dog love it. Have just read up on it a bit more and it sounds like it would suit Sam very well, easy to digest, natural probiotics, natural minerals etc. All the stuff that could give him a bit of a boost...

But the smell.... shudder....

sorry i wasn't meaning to have a go or say you were doing it wrong or anything. just thought it may be simpler and cheaper and healthier to use chicken as the basis given he was coping with chicken. i could answer why no it's not too much bone etc but i won't because i don't want you to feel hassled/bombarded

it is obviously up to you how you go about this and i hope it all goes well.

BehindLock - I'm not having a go either and have no doubt you're doing the best thing for your dog. Just wanted to mention - you said you didn't want to give 100% protein, which is fair enough as that would be too much. Just looked at the PAH pack of 100% beef chunks, package says 17.9% protein, 68% moisture, fat, ash, fibres. Didn't realise how much moisture there was, no wonder my dog hardly ever drinks now but still pees on every blade of grass he can find.
Obv it depends on type of meat, sirloin steak would have more protein, meaty bones less.

No worries, you weren't, I was just starting to doubt myself...

Will look into the blocks of meat at PAH. Eventually. (not overly keen on pah so try to buy from smaller independent shops where I can, hence the move from the pellets bought at pah to natural instinct which is family run, started up two years ago and the owners work in the shop / wharehouse which is who we met when we popped over there)

Pure meat from teh butchers / supermarket just seems a bit 'too much meat' at the moment. But as I gain confidence in Sam's digestive abilities we will obviously investigate.

I also found the Natural Instinct relatively affordable. A 1kg tub of working dog chicken (working dog has 85% meat and the lady in the shop said it would be fine for Sam) cost me £2.45. It will last 3 days (as Sam is not that big) if I also give him the odd chicken wing.
Surely by the time I have bought chicken from the supermarket, even the cheapest type, and added veg I have spent far more? (not to mention the effort involved and for me personally the worry that I am not getting the proportions / ratios right)

Anyway, thank you all for your input and support, hopefully Sam will take to being raw fed and we can keep him happy and healthy

As an aside - he buried a chicken wing yesterday afternoon, in the 'trench' dh had dug to put our new hedging. This morning dh planted the hedge. How long will my new hedging last before Sam digs it up to retrieve his wing???

i've worked out it's costing me about 85p a day to feed a 25kg dog which includes home made liver training treats. so you could spend less if you switch over later.

i need to get to a point of giving sadie more variety soon as so far she's only had chicken, fresh whole fish and liver. not sure what to go for though and i do need it to be cheap. was shocked to find that things like pigs trotters that used to be a super cheap animal product are now blumming expensive as if they're a delicacy or something.

It used to cost £1.50 a day to feed our 27kg lab on kibble, not including treats. I spend the same on raw food, could do it for less if I was more organised and found out where the nearest butcher is. I'd love to find somewhere that sells cheap whole rabbit with fur still on.
Its all a novelty still and I love watching him eat, sometimes buy more expensive delicacies like pork ribs and salmon which I don't tell DH about. Dog would be quite happy with tripe and chicken quarters.

Uptown, you need to make friends with a gamekeeper or terrierman, I don't pay a penny for rabbits and pheasants. :) Pork ribs ought to be fairly cheap though, think I get them for £2.30 a kilo from the butcher.