Will I ever be more interesting than a rabbit?

[Solo2]

OK. I'm starting a new thread, although I've referred to this issue recently on other ones. Rollo (1 yr old golden retriever) has become selectively interested in hunting - pheasants, hares, rabbits, foxes etc etc - anything small, feathered or furry, takes precedence over everything and everyone else, including food, toys - and me!

Today, having confined us to what I believed to be an absolutely safe, escape-proof field, (according to his dog trainer, who's taken him there with no problems) I discovered that he can squeeze, Houdini-like, under fences, kissing gates, through rabbit holes and make a dash for the woods, the fields and the joy of the chase!

So my carefully structured life, where I can just manage to fit in 2 good, off-lead walks, where he usually runs around most of the time - is disintegrating again into - "How do I do this?!"

I know we're going to have to work - for months - on recall - but in the meantime, how long an on-lead walk will he need to match a one hour, off-lead, running around constantly-type of walk, twice a day???

I'm presuming he'll need maybe 3 + on-lead walks, with me desperately trying to jog (think, unfit, slightly overweight, 48 yr old, with excruiatingly painful lumps on my Achilles-heels!). How on earth do you cope,when your previously recallable dog turns into a no-hold-barred, never-looking back, hunter?

Great book entitled 'Stop' on exactly how to do this

Can't remember the name of the author, but he's an ex police dog trainer and trains prey-drive crazy rabbit-loving woofers to prefer games and treats to the point where they can walk through a meadow of bunnies and ignore them.

My own goal is to be more interesting than squirrels and rats (lowly ambition, you'd think, but noooo) and I've done it, pretty much, by keeping Mouse close to me and recall, recall, recall with loads of praise and (I know Rollo can't, which must be so tricky) treats. If I head off the chase before it starts, it works - and these days, it sometimes works even in mid-chase. He's sort of lost interest, to a degree, as the habit has been broken.

It doesn't take all that long though (Mouse is nearly as old as Rollo), so maybe a week or so of long-lead walks and constant recall games/practice?

Thanks Elibean. I don't know if I shouldn't run the risk at all of any off lead walks or still try? I've just gone out and bought loads of new exciting toys for him and hope if I introduce one on a walk, he'll wan tto come near me.

Part of the problem is that he can neither have treats nor can he walk without his muzzle on. So he'll happily (in the past, off lead) chase balls and a hoop but can't actually grab them through his muzzle - although he can usually grab the hoop and then runs off for miles with it and then I have to trek after it!

Anyway, I can - with some skill - give him a piece of kibble through his muzzle - or go through the whole saga of taking off his muzzle and giving him his food and then putting it back on. But this doesn't lead to easy training and instant reward!

There's already a noticeable difference in his behaviour tonight, as he hasn't had a proper off lead run at all. He's snatched a cardboard box off the kitchen surfaces - something he hasn't done for ages - and chewed it up and is now restless, instead of sleepy. Hope he still sleeps tonight!

You may find the help you need through gundog trainers. Any training will tire a dog as much as physical exercise, so if you have him on a line and are working with him, you don't need to have him racing around so much. We used to use a horse lunge line as they are made of cotton and quite long. Could you engage him in doggy games, like finding things under plastic cups, or in a box of crumpled newspaper? You also need to practice recall in the house. Start small and work up!

I totally sympathise with the tearing up things behaviour when exercise/stimulation drops - Mouse happened not to meet any of his mad pup friends out on his walk this afternoon, and hence: tore a doorstop to shreds the minute my back was turned, and totally destroyed - of all things - a rubber joke dog poo that he supposedly gave dd1 for her birthday

Personally, I think I would let him have some off lead time as well as loads of lead/recall/training time. For sanity's sake (unless he's actually in danger, obviously, off-lead).

But yes, recall work in the house, in the garden, on the lead, on and on until its totally automatic - I found it only took a few days of intense work, followed up by regular reminders. Now I just have to do a bit of training recall stuff on, say, one walk in four or five.

Thanks. I've been reading the past threads here on recall issues and the thing that stands out for me most is that I can't reward Rollo with anything other than his normal, dry kibble - because of his stomach problems - nor (when we're out) with a toy to play with - because he wears a muzzle all the time.

I did some recall work in the house last night, using a new dog whistle - but he wasn't that bothered about coming - as the reward was, of course, his kibble again. How this will work, out and about, near fields full of game birds and rabbits, I don't know!

My dog trainer has said she really doesn't know what to suggest, as Rollo never ever runs off when he's with her and her dogs. I think the fact that she has 3 other dogs always there - who are great friends with Rollo - must help and also, Rollo adores her and is v v responsive to her, compared to me...

I can't find any escape proof walks locally.

I had him on a training line yesterday, at the supposedly enclosed field my trainer had told me about, once I'd realised he could and would escape from there! But the line just kept getting tangled up in his legs or - as I had to hold one end all the time - he'd wrench my wrist as he bolted away.

I'm pulled between just letting him off lead again today and just hoping he won't come to harm when he rushes off to hunt and keeping him on lead all the time. My trainer said that once he knows about the rabbits etc, he'll always now make a beeline for them. The area where he goes, is near and then beyond a very very deep ditch between agricultural fields, in which there are brambles and hundreds of rabbit burrows and game bird 'coveys'. It's paradise for him.

However, I was also told there were rabbit traps there - though I didn't see any when I climbed the ditch several times to find Rollo. There's also some inadequate broken wire fencing leading to private land and he got through there!

He didn't make it as far as a road but there are tractors often in the fields...Just don't know whether to let him go for it - and have a great and exhausting run or to keep him on lead indefinitely?

I know I can - and will - keep working on recall at home but why would a dog want to return to it's owner, if it can't have high value treats or even access a toy (as out and about he's wearing a muzzle) - when he can have a world of furry, feathered, erratically moving wildlife to chase?

Are you sure you aren't over thinking it? If you aren't confident, just keep him on his lead. It won't kill him, and his heel work will benefit. Give him stuff to do at home to keep him occupied - chew toys, squeaky toys, play fetch, teach him to touch your hand with his nose, look at you, lie down etc. Most important of all teach him 'leave'. Do you have a garden or a yard you can leave him in for a while to give both you and him a break. Obviously not hours, but 20 mins chasing leaves is fun (if you are a dog).

By letting him off before his recall is sorted you are basically training him that ignoring mum is fine.

Clicker train him (use kibble)

When you are working with him take the muzzle off so he can play with toys. Take the occasional risk, but be really really fun to be around so he doesn't get bored and wander off to scavenge. One of my dogs goes mad for a squeaky toy. It drive him nuts - try that.

I wonder if the fact he is more responsive to the trainer is that she is goes into it with a positive, can do attitude and makes it fun. Dogs read mood. Mine are both really difficult when I'm rushed, stressed, hassled.

He's bound head to the most exciting areas he can find - game, rabbits, whatever - he's a dog - but is that in itself a problem? It sounds like it isn't so I'd let him. He may pick up a few tangles and so on, but that isn't the end of the world.

I remember he was a very stimulated puppy when he was small, with masses and masses of interaction with you. I don't know if it's related, but it sounds as though you have a highly social, very intelligent retriever on your hands.

I agree that some really taxing training would be fabulous for him - he is a gundog, so some training sessions with a gundog trainer would suit him well, use his instincts and tax his brain. It's all about discipline, control and steadiness - excellent general obedience in other words - in the early stages with very few retrieves with dummies thrown in.

A bonus for you is that gundog training is traditionally done with no treats or toys - it's all done for praise and strokes.

Solo2 - Whilst it's annoying and worrying and a bit of a pain in the bum, I think it comes down to an age thing. There seems to be a bunch of us here having the same issues with similarly aged dogs.

Daisy's advice has always been great for us and whilst I haven't updated my thread we have now started gun dog training with our springer spaniel. We are starting back at basics (as daisy had advised) with heel work. We aren't able to do this off lead yet as despite lots of efforts she would still rush off into the bushes. As daisy said this on its own isn't an issue but this can escalate to a full on running round woods ignoring me.

So now our dog has 2-3 lead walks per day rather than 1 long off lead walk - she has been fine and hasn't been too much like a coiled spring!

I too have to take DC with me and it was when DS aged 2 fell into a marsh/swamp because I was focussing too much on te dog that I though I really should get it sorted!

As one poster said - our dogs heel work has improved so much!

Hang in there

Oh no! The 'only safe, enclosed dog play field and walk' in my area ISN'T safe for Rollo! There are loads of gaps in the fencing, as I found out today and so I had to walk him on lead.

Have had a lot of worrying feedback from various people, including my dog trainer, who's having him this w/e. She's going to see how he is with her and her dogs. However, she told me that once the hunting instinct is ignited, it never diminishes and will only get worse if I let him off lead and she suggested that he'd possibly have to have only on-lead walks for the rest of his life!

I feel v despondent...I've had SO many issues with Rollo and had only JUST found that by restructuring my entire working day (diminishing my income by about fifth, to allow me to give Rollo 2 good off-lead runs a day), I had a happy, well-behaved and restful dog.

Now, relying solely on on-lead walks, when I really, really don't have the time to give him more than a couple of one hours on-leads a day (which I imagine is about a tenth of the exercise equivalent that he WAS getting off lead), I'm afraid he'll become destructive in the home again, not sleep through the night again and generally become impossible.

My dog trainer said she'd once had a dog who'd never learned not to chase prey and had ended up breaking his neck, falling over a quarry. She said you can never stop that hunting instinct and that she'd now be afraid to walk Rollo with her own dogs, as he couldn't go off-lead and at present, he can't walk with the 'gentle leader' on either, as he has a sort patch on his chin. So he has to have collar and lead walks.

Another person advised me to get an electric shock collar and zap it every time Rollo runs off!!! I think that's horrible! Someone else has advised I get him neutered. I was advised against this by the breeder and my dog trainer, originally and there's no guarantee it'll stop him running off anyway. But does anyone here think it'd help stop his hunting instinct?

Is this really it then? In RL, this is what people seem to be implying - that Rollo is now forever addicted to chasing prey and you can't turn back an instinct that's now been ignited?

Blimey what a rubbish trainer - sorry I don't know her but she is talking bollocks. (sorry tired so no energy left to be pc).

Rollo is only 10 months old so no behaviour is ingrained yet!

Keep him on long line for a while, work on his recall and things will be better.

Get this book here

In a way a dog with a good chase instinct is great to train - you just need to divert the chase instinct onto something better eg ball or tuggy.

No need to panic at all this is just a phase that if managed correctly will pass like all the others.

Solo, seriously, get the book in Minimuu's link below - that's the one I mentioned earlier, and it will give you exactly the opposite message about prey drive and working to contain it! Honestly, its not true that you can't change it and no, you will not have to walk him onlead forever.

If you want my copy of 'Stop!' let me know - I've read it, and would be happy to post it on to you (you can PM me)

Elibean, thanks for the offer of your book. That's very kind. In fact, I've now ordered the book from Amazon and another by Clarissa Rheinhardt, which had good reviews.

I wonder if my dog trainer is basing her advice on her own personal experience about her dog who died - and is being influenced by this. She told me it had been the worst experience of her life, her dog breaking it's neck in a quarry, after it'd chased a rabbit. Maybe if she feels that the hunting instinct is ingrained and not possible to turn around with training, then she feels less guilty (which she shouldn't feel anyway) about her poor dog dying?

Anyway, thanks for reassuring me that training CAN make a difference. Minimu, it's a pity you're not in my geographical area because I'd LOVE you to help me train Rollo. You sound so calm and sensible on here.

Rollo is with his trainer this w/e but she's going to email me about how he is with her and we're hoping that he's much better with her, as I can then focus on changing MY behaviour with him.

BTW, when using a long line, how do you prevent it constantly tangling up your dog's legs or your own? The other day, when I used the old training line on him, it was very frustrating for both of us, as he kept getting it caught round his legs or round mine.

You are welcome

FWIW, I took the bits that helped/felt relevent, and put other bits aside.

And I think you may be spot on re your trainer's reaction, because it did sound 'loaded' with something other than Rollo! Sounds like a very sad and scary story, not surprising she has a 'chase instinct phobia' type reaction really - though not ok for it to be lumped on to you (not blaming her, I'm sure she's not aware of having done so).

Have a peaceful weekend