Please help us eat a meal in peace

[ChickensGoMeh]

I feel like all I do at the moment is moan about the pooch, but anyway If we leave Jasper in the kitchen with us when we eat, he spends the whole time circling like a shark and attempting to steal food. If we put him behind the stair gate where he can see us but not mug us, he barks, whines, scratches, chews the bars, pants and generally makes us all feel rather miserable. He is food obsessed, and will not settle or be calm when there's food about. How the hell do I train him to either (ideally) lay quietly while we eat, or at least accept being behind the stair gate for half an hour. He is not underweight, and does get the odd treat after we've finished eating.

We sort of used the 'settle' training in the gwen bailey book, (not sure if it is called 'settle' though ) where we got Barney to lie on his bed, kept telling him he was a good boy and would give him a bone or chew toy while we had our dinner, his bed is in his crate but we left the crate open and closed the stairgate. After a couple of weeks he got used to us getting food out of the oven and started to take himself off to lie on his bed.

After a while we left the stairgate open and he still went to his bed. Now he'll come into the living room if we eat in there but he'll lie on the blanket he has in there.

Not sure if that helps a bit, hopefully someone more experienced than me will be along soon!

Hi chickens,

I am a dog owner and a dog trainer. So hopefully I can offer some advice...

Firstly, does dog get fed at the table? If you or your kids are giving in to his charms then why would dog stop doing something that is working? Human food is very appealing to dogs, dogs see your family unit as a pack, they want to eat what you are eating to be part of the pack. Plus human food normally smells very appetising compared to the dry pellets they get! If you haven't already, cease all under the table feeding. Tell your kids how important this is too. My dog went through a begging phase recently, I couldn't work out why until I caught my 7yo nephew, feeding him under the table!

Secondly, your dog doesn't like stair gates, and he is not alone, I have never met a dog who isn't bothered by them! So I am not surprised that he is crying, if you give him ANY reaction (comforting him or even telling him off) he will know that crying works to get your attention. So you must completely ignore his attempts at contact if you do decide to continue with the stair gate.

Alternatively a great solution would be to have him wait patiently and quietly in the kitchen but away from the table. So here are some things to try... Your dog needs a place where he can feel safe and happy to wait. Presumably he has a dog bed that he sleeps on and is happy to sleep on when the family is watching TV etc. He needs to know the command "bed" for this to work. So hopefully he already knows this one, if not, reply to the post and I will provide more details. He also needs to know the command "stay".

Put his bed in an area in the kitchen where it is away from the table. Ideally put the bed in a place where it can remain there all the time. If you don't normally keep dogs bed in the kitchen, it might be worth investing in another bed. So that whichever room you are in, there is a designated dog area.

Now to meal time... don't feed your dog before you. The last in the pack gets the last pickings. So wait until everyone at the table has eaten and cleared away plates before dog gets a look in. When you start cooking put your dog on his bed or out of the room with the rest of the pack. When you are ready to serve up the food, use the "bed" command and then the "stay" command. Your ideally dog needs to understand "stay" and have release word so that he doesn't come to the table. If you don't have a release code, every time your dog gets up from his bed to go to the table, stand up and lead the dog back to the bed with a firm "bed" command and then a "stay" and then go back to eating. Be firm and keep at it. It is not going to happen overnight and your dog will take a while to adjust to this new structure but stick to it and don't give in! Puppies are easier to teach but you CAN teach an old dog new tricks!

I hope this helps, if there are still issues you need to look at the wider picture and what other behaviour he exhibits and what this is a result of. You may wish to consider getting professional help, if so I recommend looking on the KCAI list for a credited instructor in your area.

Good luck!

Our dog doesn't bother us at all at dinner time, apart from a quick cheeky sniff when we first sit down to dinner. I don't want to sound smug - ours is 11 months old, so we've had longer for the message to be drilled in! But I guess it's because she has never had food given to her at any point while we're eating. If he's getting something after you've eaten, I would personally stop that as well as it might be excitement in anticipation of that.

If you feel like this sort of passive training isn't enough and you need to do something now, you could try teaching a default settle. I had to do this for when I was preparing meat in the kitchen because she used to hassle me a lot then. Basically I used to just throw the occasional treat into the crate (as long as she was sitting there quietly and not hassling me), while ignoring her as i prepared the food. Now as soon as I start preparing food in the kitchen, she goes straight into her crate and lies down.

Thanks everyone. Yep, DH does tend to randomly feed the puppy food. I have told him not to, but.... I'll put a blanket on the kitchen floor that the pup is attached to, and every time I go in to the kitchen I'll get him to sit on it and treat him. Does this sound about right? And then when we're eating keep returning him to the blanket and treating (with his treats). We are using the stair gate to stop the mugging, but he is clearly distressed by being shut away, and I don't think I can keep it up. He isn't getting used to it, he's getting himself in more of a state. He's quite a clingy pup at the moment (he's nearly 7 months) and I'm working on leaving him for short periods (just running upstairs to do things etc). He is getting used to that, and doesn't bark/howl any more when left for a few minutes. I think it's probably partly our fault for spoiling him food wise, and partly adolescence so he's being a bit stroppy generally. Lots of barking at me if I don't do what he wants immediately (which I am ignoring). I'm stepping up the training sessions from today and using more appealing treats (was using bran, now thin slices of pepperami). He is a bright boy, so I hope he'll pick up the hints quite quickly

Ah.....if your husband's been feeding him, that doesn't bode well. You're going to have to address that ASAP and its going to take a lot longer to break this! Naughty DH!

Yes. I need to train DH now . If I manage to stop DH giving him tidbits 'so he'll leave me alone' is it a case of endless repetition? So, pushing down from the table, saying a firm 'No', returning to designated dog spot, treating and praise?

I would save yourself the hassle and just start completely ignoring him when you're eating. That's what we do and it works really well - he will soon go off and find something else to do.

If he's trying to get up onto the table, I would just use your body to block him but don't actually engage with him.

If by any chance while you are ignoring him, he happens to go and lie down on his mat (which could perhaps be encouraged at first with a chew) you could throw the occasional treat his way, but I wouldn't pay him any attention.

Chickens, I feel for you. Training DHs is agonising

One of my girls started really annoying me when I was cooking, sitting staring at me, pushing between me and worksurface, generally getting under my feet when I as cooking. Not safe at all!

Until now I have done most of the cooking, food preperation etc, but I hurt my wrist and haven't been able to. One day I was in the kitchen when DH was making lunch and he kept giving her bits of ham and cheese - I wasn't just annoyed at him teaching her bad habits, but she's a bit on the podgy side too so I keep treats to a minimum.

Wrist still hurts, but I'm glad he's gone back to work, so I can retrain my previously good, little girl.

Funnily enough, she only does it weekends now when DH helps me

I've taught a settle routine as well. I think it was from Karen Pryor's clicker website. I clicked and treated when he was lying down, building up in one second increments to 30. Once they can do 30 you can just randomly click and treat. I now just treat every now and again, so long as he's lying down. Not saying he's perfect, by any means, but he does lay down during food prep and meals now!

Teaching him where to go is a good idea, as is stopping your DH from compounding the behaviour!

It might also be an idea to investigate whether a more filling diet might help him be a little less food obsessed. I know Burns do a High Energy Lamb and a Canine Extra food which are appropriate for his age. It may well be hunger driven.

I'd at least feed him before you sit down, so he can't possibly be hungry and completely stop any food for him after you've eaten. The whole motivation for treat based training is the dog learns to anticipate a food treat for an action. By treating or feeding after your meal, he's learnt to anticipate a treat and is anxious for you to finish. Add to that the anxiety he displays with separation and you've got a fairly unpleasant meal companion. I absolutely disagree with the whole feed the bottom of the pack last bollocks. Especially considering how roundly the pack theory training method has been dismissed. With mealtimes, keeping him hungry while you're stuffing your chops is sort of asking for trouble!

This was the first thing we did with Mouse - and as he is a) rescue/pound pup and b) lab x, naturally he is also a canine dustbin and food obsessed!

Our food times and his food times are not connected either way, really.

We do totally ignore him when we're at table, and its the strictest rule (apart from crate=dog's) I have with the dds. Then either dh or I will send him to his bed - from which he can see us, about 6 ft away - and tell him to stay.

He sometimes tries getting up once or twice, and we just take him back and repeat 'stay'. Whereupon he gives up and stays put until the dds start trying to get down from table

It took a few meal times, which were very very boring/exhausting for me/dh, with repeated going back to 'bed, lie down, stay', but he's really got it now. Repetition, repetition, and never ever any titbits from table.

dhs are far harder to train but I do think consistency with what everyone expects from him is very important.

ps this was the one training we did without treats as rewards - simply so as not to confuse him about food around meal times. The important part is he is never, ever rewarded for begging - whereas he gets 'good boys' for lying on his bed.

My weak link is the toddler. He drops food constantly by accident and e puppy just waits under his highchair. I have been trying to set this boundary since day one and it is the one he breaks most!
I dont really mind re the toddler but I dont like it when playdates come over and he stalks them too.

I think the hunger issue might be relevant, daisy. He wolfs down his food, and never seems satisfied. He isn't underweight, but when we got him he was very thin. I think someone suggested skinners as a good working dog food? I feed him at 5, and we tend to eat at 5.30-6pm, so he has eaten. Admit that I'm guilty of letting him have a scrap if he's been good

Right, so no scraps, asking him to go to his bed, praise for good behaviour and ignoring the bad. I have been dropping bits of pepperami on to his kitchen blanket when he's sat on it, but you think I should stop that when we're actually eating?

Shouty - I have the toddler problem too, although she doesn't drop food by accident! I'm working really hard on 'leave it' and he's getting really good at it. Unfortunately the little bugger (DD) also likes to say 'take it' and I can't seem to stop him obeying her!

Was it Skinners Duck and Rice that was supposed to be a good alternative to Burns? I wanted to move Jas on to something a bit cheaper if possible, but don't want to set off his allergies again. He's been fine on Burns Mini Bites.

Think yourself lucky. At mil, their dog would always watch us eating dinner with a huge erection. I would try and ignore it but mil would always point it out. Yuck!

Chickens, Mouse was also underfed when we got him - and our silly vet told us that was perfect, healthy to see his ribs, etc etc. Then we had a session with a dog trainer: I didn't agree with everything she suggested, but have to say the best thing in the world was her telling me to feed Mouse more - he has chewed less, bolted his food less, behaved better and generally calmed down a LOT.

I now feel I was starving the poor boy !

We've also started switching him over to raw food, which he's loving - not that he ever turned his snout up at just about anything from Science Plan to cat poo - and maybe thats helping too.

I would definitely try feeding him a bit more for a while, see if it makes any difference.

Ohter than that, no scraps or treats while you're eating (and no treats for dh till he behaves )

spanky UGH!

He was an airedale, so difficult to ignore!
Dogs will eat poo to keep their home clean. My aunt's dog would eat the contents of her dd2's nappies. It reminds me of that Men Behaving Badly, where they were talking about the French women's underarm hair being so long they could put it in a bun, and the other one said Ugh the French will eat anything.

well, I am half French and trust me, I would not eat half of what Mouse would eat

I would - he just needs to learn that you at the table = bugger all interesting for him, so like Eli said, a few meals of hard work and probably indigestion by putting him where you want him, giving him his stay command and watching his every move. If he moves from his place and you see him in mid move, say no as you see him and test up and take him back. Stay, good boy and back you go to the table. If you don't see him actually move, just get up and calmly put him back again. As he begins to get it, you can be firmer when you take him back.

It shouldn't take long.

Skinners is a good alternative to Burns - I would put off the swap if he were mine until he's stopped growing though (I don't remember what breed he is). Like children, I think that pups need the best we can put into them to grow strong and healthy and I am not too as keen on Skinners Puppy food. It has both maize and wheat in it which are v common allergens.

Burns does keep them lean and some dogs are starving on it. A good rough guide to condition on a dog is the sheet/blanket/duvet analogy. If you're feeling ribs, they should feel as though there is a covering of skin like a light blanket over them. If it feels like a sheet, they are probably a bit skinny, and if it's more than a light blanket, they're a bit porky.

Up his ration for a week or two and see if it helps. Burns recommend 10g of food per kg - if you're feeding at that rate, up it a bit (do you know how much he weighs?) and see if that has an impact. It does sound as though he's hungry tbh. You could also try adding a proportion of Burns High Oats which is a feeling fuller for longer food, that might help and is unlikely to upset him.

What I don't understand is a dog can eat all manner of stuff and not get an upset tummy. I actually think the French are very discerning when it comes to food. i like shopping for food in France because there is a much better selection and it's a better quality than here.

He is around 11kg, and I feed him approx. 300g a day in two feeds. So, near the top of the recommended ration for his weight. And I've upped that from 200g a month ago, because he was very thin when I picked him up from the boarder. He was only there five days over Christmas, but she had 5 labs and he was running around the farm like a lunatic the entire time. In fact, she upped his ration because she could see the weight coming off him. He is a very active little dog. I walk him for between an hour and an hour and a half a day, some of it off lead. He runs around the garden quite a bit and has recently discovered the delights of the trampoline . He eats a raw carrot most days, and the odd chew etc. He just never seems full. I've read puppy websites which said 'put enough food in the bowl so that the pup leaves a bit'. I swear he'd eat 'til he exploded.

That is a lot for his weight. At that feed rate is he putting on or remaining static?