kids and 9 month old pup: help me with my anxiety

[Elibean]

which isn't helping anyone, kids or dog

Basically, pup is lovely. Easy, friendly, lab x rescue. Had him 3 months. Food obsessed, strongish prey drive, but coming on in leaps and bounds.

Kids are lovely too, dd1 8 and dd2 5. My main anxiety is with dd2, who is herself nervous of dogs - and was terrified six months ago, but Mouse has helped hugely.

Most of the time, all is well - I have rules, they mostly get obeyed, we have a stairgate so dds have dog-free zone, dog has crate so he has kid-free zone. They know not to touch him when he is around food/eating. They know not to eat around him, or interract when at table, too.

BUT when they are home from school, everyone is excited. I tend to crate Mouse till girls a bit settled, then let him out and do a bit of training, interact.....but then if the dds sit on the sofa, he jumps up at them, licking crazily, sometimes pulling at dd2's clothes. I have to police their interactions most of the time. Its the same first thing in the morning (but dh is there, which helps). Even if I sit on the sofa next to dds, Mouse will keep on - until I get up and take him to another room, or interact with him some more, or give him treats for lying down, etc.

I am sure I'm making a rod for my own back somewhere in this, but not sure where. Possibly have used kongs/treats too much to get peace/space.

He has snapped at dd2 once (she stood on his bed to stroke him before school, have now moved bed out of playroom), and at dd1 once (she was messing with his food cube, trying to help him get food out - and then patted him: her fault, I think) and part of my personal problem is that I'm a bit nervous of him doing it again - plus he's got a lot bigger recently, no longer a baby!

Someone give me some confidence/tips/backbone please

Sorry, I'm definitely not an expert - am lurking around these threads a lot as we are getting a puppy soon but didn't want you to go unanswered. Do you have any training classes nearby or behaviourists that could come to your house? I googled my area and there seemed to be loads about. Hope someone a bit more useful comes along soon

Thanks

Did have trainer come, and she has given general obedience tips - and advice re kids avoiding dog when he has food ( obviously) etc.

Other than those two times, the worse he does is pull at their clothes, jump up etc - normal puppy stuff, but he's big now! Tbh, getting them not to be hyper with him is the hardest part.

that and reassuring myself that he's not going to turn into a ravening beast

I'm ok when dh is around, but for some reason get all stressy when dealing with kids/dog alone

What pup are you getting?

That sounds like my life except my puppy is 11 weeks old. I am soooooo frazzled. I think my puppy gets too much attention. To protect the kids from his little sharp teeth, I distract him making the problem worse.

The snapping is a concern and I can see that this must hugely add to your stress.

Can you think really carefully about both snapping instances.
Was Mouse touched in the same spot on both occasions.
Could Mouse see the DC's or were they behind him.

Re the jumping about I would just remove him from the situation, say nothing at all. From a training point of view I would let him in again very soon and click and treat if he is calm - but for your personal survival just shut him out until he calms down and you have more time to deal with it.

He has to learn the appropriate behaviour for different situations this is a great training opportunity.

He is getting settled and confident now in his surroundings which is fantastic and shows what a great job you have done. Now comes the fine tuning training! Yes I am totally in favour of positive training but that also means positively training the dogs to settle and know when to chill.

Thanks so much - I feel relieved just reading your feedback.

I didn't see one of the snapping episodes (will ask dh) but I think its quite likely that a) dc were behind pup - at least, the one I saw was and b) they were both touching his back/shoulders. I did wonder if he'd had some trauma there, but he plays all the time and never seems to mind - and I can stroke and pat him without any reaction

The one around the food cube makes more sense, because I guess he was guarding - but the one with dd2 worried me more. She is no bigger than he is, and he does seem to 'pester' her the most - she probably makes him anxious, because she is anxious/jumpy. But she was behind him, and she was standing on his (day) bed/mat....

I do think a lot of the jumping around will calm down with age, but in the meantime I shall continue to use crate for sanity at times, and do lots of calming and removing where possible.

And thank you for the positive feedback - its nice to hear it

He is so much more confident, and in 3 months has gone from no commands at all/not housetrained to knowing sit/stay/leave it/drop/lie down and never has any accidents. So if I could just lose the stress....!

OK - dh says he only caught it out of the corner of his eye, but he thinks that Mouse didn't actually jump up at dd1, he snapped/growled. dd1 says she was patting the back of his neck. dd2 says she was stroking his side/shoulder.

I find myself swinging from making excuses for Mouse (and hoping its just adolescent something or other) to thinking of him as a ravening beast about to attack my family - although most of the time, he's just a slightly skittish 9 month old mutt!

Suffice to say I never leave the children alone with Mouse and don't trust ANY of them 100%

A real long shot here but what is his hearing like? I would probably want to check this out as if he was startled/concentrating on something else it could cause a snap reaction.

Equally it could just be he was uncertain and you are right if the dc were moving quickly or dithering a bit that would make him feel less secure

We have a rule here that if a dog is in its bed, you leave it alone. Was Mouse asleep when DD2 stood on the bed?

When the DC get home from school you say you crate him, is he crated before they come in or after? If it is after, is he seeing it as some sort of punishment? Can you take him on the school run? This bit does sound like he's missed them and wants their attention, which is a good thing so long as it's controlled. Can you give him a calmer task at this point - such as a kong, preferably something that's more fun than hugs from the girls, and training with Mum?

Can you get the girls to do some treat training with him? Not during the hyper stage when they first get in, but at quieter times? Then Mouse will see them as treat givers and not treat stealers, iyswim.

The pulling at DD2's clothes sounds like puppy wanting her to play, but I couldn't be sure without seeing it, so may be totally wrong. I don't think he sounds like a ravening beast about to eat your family - I have one of those and Mouse sounds much nicer

Could it be that the time he spends with your girls is limited (good to have restraints in place) but because of this it's now hyper-stimulating for him? (Just the impression I'm getting from your description of frantic jumping up/licking etc)

MrsZ's suggestions might all help with this - they need to be more boring to him for him to ignore them more! I'd imagine DD1 is old enough to help with his training in quite a constructive way, and also model behaviour for DD2?

Also - I know it's a difficult one to balance when they're still growing, but could you up his exercise? Wearing him out a couple of times a day in the park will make him calmer indoors. Will he chase/retrieve a ball? Not sure what current advice is but I'd imagine as he's not a big/gangly dog you won't damage him by getting him running around when he's still young.

Thanks

I'm beginning to calm down, which helps everyone else calm down

I think his hearing is ok, but not brilliant - he doens't respond fast to noises, but if there are no distractions he seems to hear perfectly well. I might check with next vet visit, thanks for that thought. Uncertain, yes - I have taken a step back and remembered he has only been here 3 months, had a very deprived start in life (for 5 months) and is only just settled. Plus he's young.

Yes, the girls need to become more boring - he needs familiarizing with them. With dd1 its relatively easy, and yes she does do training stuff with him (though is inconsistent, which is annoying) and best of all will play tug games which he loves. dd2 needs to be less anxious, and that depends on me being calm and constantly present really - when Mouse is around - for which, thanks again to you lot for helping me improve on that one!

Quodlibet, he gets about 2 hours off-lead time per day, most days - and we've just started being able to add ball playing (he didn't know how to play before) to the playing with doggy pals he loves to do. He's smaller than a lab, but still pretty gangly/long legged - must have some pointer or something as well as the lab and a bit of staffy, hard to say! But I've been told 2 hours is fine, and he certainly is calmer in the evenings when he's had a good play and not too much time alone, either.

Feeling much more positive tonight, and am going to try and let him be around the girls much more in a boring way....somehow....and also be firmer when he jumps up. dh is far more authoritative with him, he gets cross rather than anxious, and Mouse responds really well - a big 'NO' followed by instant praise when he sits/lies down to greet. I'll practice my bass voice

you replied on my dog/puppy thread, so although I still haven't got any further with my quest, I'm still reading the doghouse

There is a similar age dog to yours on our school run & he seems to really enjoy the mile or so walk to school & back. There are also a few other dogs\older puppies, so they all seem to enjoy the socialising !

As another poster suggested, could Mouse go on your school run ? Then perhaps there are other stimulus which would take the focus off your DD's ?

Thinking about it another mum never brings the dog on the school & apparently he is VERY excited when the DC's come home.

Thank you, Willowisp

I'd love to take Mouse on school run, but I have to go around the back to get dd1, then back to the side for dd2, and it all takes about 20 minutes of me being in the school grounds. Where he can't go. So too long for him to be tied to railings, and wouldn't leave him with swarms of kids running up to pet him - for his safety as well as theirs - can only do it if someone comes with me

But I"ve taken the essence of your thoughts, and have spent the last few days 'making the kids boring'. Some days, dh is able to take dog out when kids coming home, so they are in first and calmer - hence dog calmer. In fact, I'm sure 90% of the wild excitement is kid-generated anyway

No snaps since I posted, and also we've worked hard on squirrel chasing/prey drive and he is FAR less squirrel-focussed when out. We're also feeding him more, and he is calmer - poor chap was probably starving (as per vet instructions, but really didn't feel right).

Poor fellow. He has had a lot to get used to in a very short time. And it sounds like a lot to get over too.

He is likely to be over stimulated really easily because of that deprivation when young; he hasn't been thoroughly a socialised when he was a tiny pup to make sure that life in all it's noise and movement and colour became normal - nothing to be excited about. We have a working bred lab who was brought up badly for her first 8 weeks and it had a massive influence on the way she reacts to things - she will bounce off walls if she is fazed by something - and that's after only 8 weeks. Your poor chap had much longer than that!

Our nutty dog was also very mouthy and growly - the growls were from fear/unknown experiences. She needed jollying out of it, not shouting at - jolly hockey sticks type voice with lots of 'who's a bit of a nana then? Silly old you.' Nonsense really. She took all of her cues from us - even if we didn't know it! If we were rushing about to get out of the house, so was she. She wasn't used to that sort of behaviour.

I agree it sounds as though your girls make him over stimulated, so time spent with them just hanging about and with you there to teach him how to behave with them. Teach him that they're not there for him to play with whenever he fancies. Teach him to sit with you all when your watching tv or reading books etc. It sounds that in many ways he's trying too hard at everything without having a bloody clue what he is meant to do.

He has made huge progress in a very short time though. He's landed on his feet!

Elibean, just another thought, your school set up sounds similar to mine. What the doggie mums do is wait outside. So when (if?!) I get my dog, Dd2 (8) will collect dd1 (5) from her class & they will both come & meet me & hopefully "descrescendo" on thr walk home. There are about 5 or 6 dogs waiting & as I said, they all seem to enjoy the excitement & love to see their junior owners coming out

Hope you can resolve it, thinking about when my dd's get home they are loud & boisterous, so from Mouse's point of view, I expect he wants to join the party !