Nylon or Baskerville muzzle? (Aggressive behaviour)

[lethimdown]

We are taking our staffy to have a muzzle fitted this weekend to try and control his aggression towards other dogs. Having never used one before, can anyone advise which type would better fit the purpose? He is used to wearing a nylon head collar (Gentle Leader) around his snout so we were thinking of nylon as they 'form' to the snout more (plus we like the fact that due to his colour it would be a bit disguised), but I'm not sure if the Baskervilles are for one thing in particular and the nylon another?

Also - does anyone know if it is possible to use a muzzle whilst also using a head collar? The head collar is the only way we can control the dog, especially when he lunges, so we don't want to give up the use of it.

If he's having a muzzle fitted on Saturday, would the fitter be able to advise on the best type and combo with harness?

We have greyhounds so use muzzles regularly but haven't ever used them in conjunction with a harness so can't help with that, sorry.

With disguise it may actuallybe a bit better if the muzzle is highly visible - this can often be a visual signal to other dog walkers (a bit like a red tail bandage on a horse who kicks). You can also get hi vis vests for you to wear that say things like "Please keep away - young dog in training etc..." - could be worth a try? I think Minimu said she had been using/wearing one of these.

Hi, Scuttle, thanks for replying. I updated my last thread to say I'd been in contact with one of the trainers you recommended! Thanks for that by the way. It certainly feels more positive that we have support. I was the one considering rehoming btw, not sure if you remember.

Anyway I shall indeed ask the Pets At Home people when I go tomorrow but to be honest the local branch are fairly useless with that kind of advice so thought I'd check on here.

I must admit the idea behind disguising the muzzle is a bit to do with not wanting the dirty looks other people/some dog walkers give you when they see you've got a staffy on a muzzle. Will look into the hi vis vests though, not a bad idea, thanks.

We use (or are trying to use!!!!) a Baskerville Ultra on our Staff x who is dog aggressive. Recommended by our (very good!) beahviourist, a) as it will help me relax and b) as it is likely to discourage people from approaching or letting their dogs approach him. As of yet we cannot get him to wear it (he hates having things around his head and gets so stressed it would make him more likely to be aggressive and unable to concentrate on training, so it's counter productive for now) but it does fit and I don't think he'd be able to get it off and he is very determined!!!

According to the behaviourist, he would be able to wear this with a halti, obviously we haven't tried that yet.

Nylon muzzles can prevent the dog from panting, so I personally don't think they're suitable for your situation. You can also stillive treats through a Baskerville.

I'd go for the Baskerville - the nylon ones are designed for short period of use (vet visits, clipping, grooming etc.) and not for walking where the dog needs to be able to pant, drool, sniff etc.

As for the head collar, I imagine that one that has an attachment point on the back of the head would be fine but not one that attaches underneath, if you get me? Something like a Canny Collar might work but not the Gentle Leader, Halti etc.

This site are good for measurement advice if you want a 'nicer' long term muzzle.

From a non dog owner that takes her Dc walking in doggie areas, I'd be relieved to see any dog in a muzzle as it would suggest sensible ownership.

Hth

midori, out of interest, has your behaviourist made any comment as to the dog feeling threatened/unable to defend himself due to the muzzle use - beside the stress of the muzzle itself? This is what I am quite concerned about and as we aren't actually seeing the trainer for another couple of weeks I am reluctant to use it without knowing what might expect from my dog - although the trainer has advised on the phone to start using it asap to get used to it.

toboldlygo, thanks for that info on nylon muzzles - I wasn't aware they were for short term use. The Gentle Leader fastens with a clip behind the head so should be ok. Will make sure to test the whole shebang at the pet shop tomorrow though. Looks like we'll be going for the Baskerville.

Willow, thanks for this comment, I am glad you see it that way but sadly many don't! Sad really, as if it were only children running around the park my dog would be perfect (if a little excited!). Blardy dogs.

No and I don't see why a dog would connect it with either. I think the important thing is going to be making positive associations with the muzzle, so the dog sees it as a good thing. We are working on it by doing things like getting him to take treats out of the muzzle, we've worked up so he has to put his nose in it to get them and he's happy with that. He just really hates anything around his head.

Two of our greys (and many many other pointies) wear muzzles regularly and routinely on their walks. They never show any discomfort, or difficulty about putting them on - in fact for them it's part of the pre walk excitement when they see the leads and muzzles and coats coming out of the various cupboards. They are also very confident once the muzzles are on - the key is that greys are used to wearing them for racing so have worn them from a very young age and are comfortable.

Another thing to think about is to find a local field/private area where you could exercise your dogs off lead safely. We use a greyhound charity's field (in fact we were there today) and our three can romp around very happily for an hour with absolutely no worries about a troop of offlead Yorkshire terriers suddenly appearing around the corner!!

See if there are any riding schools near you who would be willing to hire out an indoor school (or even a secure outdoor menage) for an hour or so every week - that way you'd have somewhere secure and free of distractions where you could practice things like recall and woof can run around happily without coming to any harm.

midori, you're right, I'm probably overthinking it. He got used to the head collar with no problems so hopefully he'll be ok on the muzzle.

Scuttle, we have actually been looking into trying to hire a secure yet open space where we can exercise him and work on his recall off lead. No luck locally as the fields behind our house are either public or aren't secure so no joy there, but will keep hunting.

Bed now, blimey. Sure I'll be back with more novice questions. :)

Some recommendations for finding a secure area. Try any local greyhound charities as they often will use off lead play areas (like the one we go to). They may well be happy to let you use the facility. Also, ask your behaviourist or call your local Dog Warden - both will know of local dogs that need to be kept on the lead when out so will probably know of any secure areas where training/off lead play can be done. Also, people with huskies/northern breeds are also often not able to let off lead so need secure areas - so if you know any husky owners/ local breed club then ask away!

The more I think about this, there is a huge business opportunity for someone to let out a secure fenced area for dog training etc in most areas.

You might have some success by joining one of the husky groups on Facebook (Musher's Mouthpiece springs to mind) and asking if anyone knows of off-lead places in your area - as above, husky bods will have scoped out secure areas. :)

Our trainer operates out of an RSPCA centre with secure fenced fields, exercise compounds etc. that we can use before and after lessons and, if I didn't have a field closer to home, I'd be able to drive them there to do the same at pretty much any time, you just need to give priority to the staff if they come along. Worth asking at your local centre, Dogs Trust etc.

So glad someone is coming to help you in rl.

Re the muzzle - only use the baskerville muzzles. The dog can drink, eat treats, and be sick, pant if required wearing one. DO Not use the nylon ones ever!

Re dog feeling like he can not fight back -to be honest dogs can give a very nasty muzzle punch if they want to! However I do know what you mean. You must associate the muzzle with good times. The dog must not think - every time I get this muzzle put on I go to places I am uncomfortable in and then I know I will get stressed.

To prevent this I always teach any dog that I have to muzzle or clients dog that has to muzzle the muzzle game. They all learn how to push a football with a muzzle. So once they are used to the muzzle the football comes out and the best game ever takes place. The dog pushes the ball maybe towards a goal, maybe to the owner and gets mega rewards.

The dog then associates the muzzle with fun and relaxation. When you go for a walk the dog may meet a dog but the positive association of the muzzle should hold.

So don't just put the muzzle on to go and walk amongst dogs.

Make the muzzle fun

Some dogs don't mind wearing them at all - some need a while to get used to them. If your dog does you can do the following:-

First thing I would do is hold the muzzle and give him treats

Then I would hold the muzzle and put my fingers through it give him treats (he is not wearing it)

Then I would put treats in the muzzle and he would have to push his nose in to the muzzle to get the treats

Then I would do above and put straps around his head while he is eating the treats

then when he is happy I would have it on for a second and give him the best treats ever and build up from there.

You may not need to through all of that but just in case!

In the meantime teach him to push. Get a post it note and hold it in front of him - he should go to sniff it click and treat, keep doing this until he is happy to touch it with his nose.

Then put the post it note onto a light cupboard door (eg kitchen rather than wardrobe!) he should touch the post it with his nose hold back a little on the click and treat and he will push it a bit harder click and treat.

Practise this and you will get a push. Now put your post it note on a gym ball or on a football and click and treat if he pushes, so not click and treat a bite!
Give a push command.

When he has his muzzle on ask him to push the football and the beginnings of a great game, and a chilled muzzle wearing dog. Also the more tricks a dog learns the more confident they become which also really helps reactive dogs and increases the bond with you. Ok he may be a terror on the streets but at home he is a clever fun dog - it makes it easier to forgive his other behaviour!

All my dogs do the muzzle game if they need a muzzle of not!

Also your earlier comment about what people think - People that matter will acknowledge that you are a brilliant owner who is taking appropriate steps to keep your dog and other people/dogs safe. Others who give a dam

We all know you are working extremely hard at this and you really should be commended.

Thanks Scuttle and Boldly, some great starting points here and I imagine a lot more fruitful than scouring Gumtree. Will get onto these on Monday.

minimuu these games are great! Thanks so much for all this. He will love playing these, he really is so eager to please and fun loving in the house, it is the only space he really relaxes in, he is always so stressed when we're out. I hope the muzzle will become a positive thing, I'm sure it can't make things any worse anyway!