Confused....

[scrappydoodah]

I am getting really confused with all the conflicting advice out there re training.

I understand from MN that the alpha and dominance theory has been discredited, and that clicker/treats/reward based training is preferred.

BUT, is the alpha theory so bad? I don't know, I am not a trainer, just an owner struggling to do the right thing.

A new trainer is working in the village. He has all the relevant qualifications, and a good reputation, but he does use the alpha approach to training. Here's the thing... it works on my dogs. It works better than treats, as neither of them really give a fig about treats, even high value ones. One is weird about food (a bit OCD, will only eat from his bowl, in a calm environment), and the other is a working dog that just wants to do stuff.

They adored the trainer, seemed relieved to have an 'alpha type' in charge. The trainer just had a calm I'm the boss kind of aura that they responded to. Even my dog with nervous aggression did not react at all when the trainer walked him past another dog. He trotted along looking up at the trainer and when he did glance at the other dog was happy to break eye contact with it when prompted by the trainer. I could wave a roast chicken in his face and he wouldn't break eye contact with another dog.

The guy actually said I have lovely dogs, that don't need much more training, but I need some work

Some body help me out here, vvvvv confused.

I think its fine to let your dog know you are incharge, this is what my nervous aggresive dog reacts well to, but in a kind way. more of a 'dont worry I know what I'm doing' than a 'do as your told or I will electroctue you' kind of way. Abit like with kids, you have to be in charge but you dont have to dominate. does that make any sense at all?

Yes, that makes sense, and the trainer wasn't advocating that kind of thing. He didn't use treats though, and did act 'alpha'.

I think I'll stick with him, even if his theories are out of date. My dogs liked him, and he was not bullying them in any way.

Projecting an aura of calm assertiveness (to paraphrase Cesar ) is absolutely fine and something which a lot of dogs respond to, even without any additional methods.

I think you may be confusing this with the choke-and-yank, electric-collar, 'don't let the dog go through the doorway first or he'll eat your children', 'dogs are still wolves' type 'Alpha' trainers who you absolutely should not be giving your money or time to. If the guy actually refers to himself as an alpha, starts talking about pack dynamics and so on I'd tread with caution.

Treats aren't the be-all and end-all but I do think dogs need a reward or incentive, for working dogs this is often toys, tug games etc. rather than food.

'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson is an excellent explanation of modern training methods and doesn't just push clickers and food. :)

Dominance training and alpha dog theory is rubbish.

I do train using positive reinforcements however my dogs are very well aware that I am in charge and I will protect them - hence they are comfortable relaxed and at ease when with me.

All good trainers who work with dogs will usually have a presence, for want of a better word, that dogs feel comfortable with. This is why your nervous dog was calmer with the trainer than you - nothing to do with top dog etc.

I also have trained quite bossy dogs who do need at times a firm word to concentrate (but I am not dominating, just getting their attention to be able to learn- bit like dealing with my teenagers!) they then will get a positive reward for the correct behaviour and will have "learnt" that was what was expected of them.

If I have given them a negative response to a behaviour it will not teach them the correct behaviour.

Look carefully at your trainer, and how he reacts with your dogs. How often does he praise them, look at the rewards he is giving them, it may not be treat based but he will be rewarding them. If he really never ever rewards them by a smile, a pat, or a command go elsewhere.

I have said this so many times on MN that you will be bored but think of the scenario we get fined for speeding in our cars, does that stop speeding - no. What if we got randomly rewarded and give a £50 reward for driving at the correct speed - which one would you work for!

It has been proven for years that if you want behaviour repeated then positively reward the behaviour and it will be repeated. So why make it hard for ourselves and not use positive training - it will always work!

the speeding analogy works minumi it has been proved that those signs that give you a smily face are more effective than cameras. I know I liike getting the smiley face.

Ultimately, as long as a trainer is humane, it doesn't matter why they think their methods work really.

Being calm around dogs - lovely. That is always going to have a positive effect. It doesn't matter if the trainer thinks he's projecting calm assertive energy (or whatever airy-fairy phrase he/she chooses to use) - it's still going to help.

If you're consistent about not allowing a dog on the sofa any more, nine times out of ten (after, probably, a period of becoming even more determined to get on) it will give up trying. Whether you believe in what up-to-date trainers term "extinction burst" or whether you believe that the dog has finally realised that you're the "Alpha", you've arrived at the same result.

The problems, I think, arise when a trainer comes along, tells you that all your problems will be solved if you pretend to eat a biscuit before you feed your dog, and go through doorways first, yadda yadda.

TBH though I'd question any trainer who never used food treats. There's a reason why 99.9% of Obedience/Agility etc trainers use food or toys to train/motivate their dogs.

Also just a thought that some more aggressive training styles do appear to work at first eg shock collars.

If the dog feels a shock it will stop the behaviour HOWEVER there are always consequences to this type of behaviour either the dog gets used to the level of punishment and starts to ignore it or more likely the dog is so traumatised by the punishment that other even worse distraction behaviours appear.

So shows like CM (although we never see all the edits) may appear to work however I can guarantee if you return to the situation a few weeks later things will not be as he left them. He can them blame it on the owner for not being calm assertive!

Positive learning and training does take a little longer but the key thing is that the dog is LEARNING the new behaviour not being forced or fearful or doing some that it actually is not sure was wrong in the first place.

Thanks everyone - really helpful. He seemed ok, and was rewarding through voice and touch. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now, and look up the 'The Culture Clash'
Minimuu I haven't given up on your clicker advice, we're working on it. I'm having a little trouble with the treats side as he loses interest quite quickly, but will try using a tennis ball. He is obsessed with tennis balls!

Absolutely use the ball - the treat just has to be the thing he loves the best.

I have used flower pots with one dog, a tin tray with another to them they were the best thing in the world.

One of my collies a stroke under his chin and he will do anything for you

Your dog chooses what he classes as a reward, so it's perfectly fine to use a ball if that's what he likes best.

However, you can get a hundred more repetitions in a training session if you use treats. Click/treat, click/treat is much quicker and simpler than click/throw ball/wait for dog to return etc. Also, they seem to focus better; by the time you've thrown the ball, there's a chance your dog will have forgotten what he's actually been rewarded FOR.

There isn't a dog alive who is totally uninterested in food. If they were, they'd die. The trick is to find the food reward that the dog loves best. Also to make sure the dog is peckish. Some days my dog won't get her dinner in a bowl at all; I will have used her food ration throughout the day for training sessions. I'm not suggesting for a second you starve your dog - but it does make sense to make sure their "want" for the reward is as high as you can engineer it to be.

Flower pots and tin tray!

Sodding Cesar Milan

Bad enough he USES shock collars - but to hide the fact, and pretend his "success" (arguable) is simply down to being "calm assertive" and "touches" (kicks, Cesar, let's not pretty it up) is just hideous.

Sorry Calamity, I know Cesar is a dirty word, he just stuck out in my mind as an example of someone who promoted the whole 'calm but assertive' thing. The exercise > discipline > affection thing as well, bang on. Shame about the other 95% of crap he does.

I would kill for a dog with a ball/toy drive, so easy to use to your advantage, as it is I foster a passable food interest in my otherwise apathetic dogs by using really high value stuff, ham, chicken, liver or tuna cake, prawn Primula and only training when they are hungry.

Oh yes - he speaks sense sometimes. Unfortunately, the times he speaks sense he's invariably quoting stuff that's been known about for YEARS. The stuff he comes up with himself is always, always bollocks

minimuu I use the chin stroke with one too - always gets me a tail wag.

calamity really, one of my dogs won't eat treats from the hand. I could starve him and he still wouldn't. He's a bit odd (bless). Will only eat from one particular bowl, in the quiet, with no one watching. You watch, he watches back. If he is even slightly stressed not even the correct food in the correct bowl will do it. As for his reaction if you do something awful like put an egg on his food. You'd think it was poison. I love this dog btw, because he is frankly bizarre.
The other is food motivated for about 5 minutes after which he gets bored of it and wants to work. I could stretch it out to 7 minutes, probably, if I used chicken skin. A tennis ball though keeps his attention for hours.
All this advice is just so helpful - you guys are great

Scrappydoodah you reminded me. One of the activities I do at my puppy classes is to get the owners to make their dogs tail wag without using a toy or a treat - just themselves.

For some dogs it is dead easy(just smile at a lab or goldie!) however for others it is harder but vital you know how to do it. Remember what it is and frequently make your dog laugh!

Singing and skipping usually works

Ooh I'm going to try that right now!

Heh. A smile and a cheery "Alright, Bird?" had her wagging away. She loves being chatted to

I said wag your tails then dogs, and they did, very obediant my dogs