All these dogs getting attacked by other dogs - what causes it?

[feesh]

There's been a few threads recently about dogs getting attached by other off-lead dogs.

As a first time dog owner, I have NO idea how a dog ends up becoming dog-aggressive and it's worrying me a bit - how do I prevent my dog ending up becoming aggressive towards other dogs? Is it something they're born with or does it come about after some bad experience? At what age can you safely say 'My dog will never become dog-aggressive'?

For instance, my 10-month-old dog has no social skills whatsoever (she was abandoned at about 2 months old so I doubt she spent enough time with her littermates). She pesters and pesters other dogs that we walk with by nudging them, nipping at them and barking at them - some of them join in playing with her, some get fed up with it but don't know how to tell her to eff off, and others put her in her place (thankfully, although this rarely stops her from trying it on again). I don't generally intervene but let them all sort it out between themselves - is this OK?

(I should add that I live in the Middle East and there is nowhere to walk dogs here safely, so a few of us tend to get together a few times a week and let the dogs run amock on a remote beach!)

Recently, I don't know if she's hit a bit of a fear phase, or if she's had one too many tellings off from other dogs, but she does sometimes get a bit anxious when we pull up on the beach and there are already 5 or 6 dogs there, and shows VERY submissive body language and sometimes sticks close to me for the first 10 minutes or so. Eventually she finds a suitable playmate and starts to get involved.

I'm just wondering, is there any danger of my dog ending up becoming one of these dog-aggressive dogs, and what advice do people like Minimuu have for dog owners in general to prevent their dogs from developing problems with other dogs?

attacked sorry, not 'attached' (in the first line)

I don't think there is any one cause or explanation tbh. If it helps my dog was absolutely fine until he was 14 months, and then he started to snap. Had I been more aware of what this meant I'd have nipped it in the bud. I think that's the secret, catching it early. He was well socialised, lives with another dog, and had stayed with other people and their dogs all through puppy hood, so I think it is something in his head. Two possible factors are 1. His companion dog is very nervous, and gives off a vibe which he picks up on. 2. He was the most submissive pup in the litter.

All I can say is don't worry, just watch your pup, and at the first sign of stress aggression act quickly to address it.

She has snapped at other dogs before - sometimes she gets the grump in the car when we give a friend a lift to the beach with his 3 dogs. I think she sees it has 'her' car and sometimes there are some minor spats on the way to the beach (not on the way back though!). Also there is the odd spat on the beach while the dogs all work things out for themselves.

I have always believed in letting them sort it out between them - if things look like they are escalating or one dog is getting pestered, I run away and get my dog to follow me or distract them with a ball or something.

I guess I'm just worried that she might suddenly get overwhelmed by all these dogs one day and start getting aggressive.

It's all a bit artificial out here and I am conscious that if/when we go back to England she is going to have to be walked in a park on a lead like a normal dog (lol!) and I don't want her to end up being the kind of monster that some people on here have had bad experiences with.

Scrappydoodah, how would you have dealt with your dog's reactivity if you could go back in time?

I don't always believe in letting dogs sort it out for themselves. If I had a dog that was always unhappy in a certain situation I would either desensitise to that situation or avoid it (depending on the situation!)

If there was a dog that my dog would snarl out or be uncomfortable playing with I would not let that interaction take place. If the play gets too much for my dog I would make a distraction and call my dog away for better play with me.

Re aggressive dogs and what causes them: a big question! sometimes it is genetic, sometimes enviromental and sometimes learned behaviour.

I would be a little careful with your dog if she is showing signs of being uncomfortable around dogs as she can learn that to growl or lunge is a very affective way of getting rid of unwanted dogs. If you do not protect her she will find her own way to do this eg aggression. However I am not on the ground and can not see her so this may be an inaccurate point!

She needs to have only positive encounters with dogs. I would not let her straight off lead to play with the dogs I would like to walk together first and then let the dogs off - it tends to break down the lets just all charge at each other!

I also would protect her in your car (actually I would not give lifts if my dogs were unhappy with the other dogs) - is she crated or can she safely be in another section of the car from the other dogs?

Firstly I would have gone back to walking the dogs separately, as I did when I first got the second dog. A large part of the problem is the vibe given off by the older dog. It would have been much easier to nip in the bud if I'd focussed on him exclusively earlier.

Second I would have got a trainer involved immediately. I do not have the necessary knowledge to deal with this myself.

Third, I had stopped taking the younger dogs on specific training walks round the village and past the school at pick up time (where there are dogs and children). I thought he no longer needed this socialisation as he had always been very relaxed and friendly on these walks.

All of the above allowed the snappy dog to bond with his nervous companion, excluding me, and pick up a fear vibe around other dogs. Collies often have a snappy side, and this has come out.

On the up side he is improving. I do however have an ongoing problem with two large aggressive labs that are allowed tor roam free locally as they attack my on-lead dogs, reinforcing a fear reaction in both. I know the owner, but she a superior sort who regards herself as above tedious things like being a responsible dog owner. Sighhhh

My collie is dog aggressive. I never let her off if I see another dog, even if the owners says it is ok.
She hasn't ever caused anything other than superficial damage but I just no longer trust her, and it's so awful to see.
I put it down to 3 incidents when she was a puppy. She was so terrified she ran home across the main road. I think now she is of the opinion she needs to tell every dog off before it has a chance to bite her.
I don't think she will ever change now, the fact that she is regularly chased and surrounded by our local dog walker and her pack of furiously barking dogs, doesn't help.

If your dog is already quite submissive around other dogs I don't think she is likely to turn out like my dog. She may become a bit fearful and snappy if other dogs run up to her but it doesn't sound like she is going to dive in for a full on bundle.
Keep her socialised and be careful around unfamiliar dogs to avoid unpleasant incidents .
Oh an avoid me if you see me out and about with my dog (brown colllie)

Thanks so much for your replies - they have been useful already. For instance, she started having almost proper fights with another young dog we see at the beach - neither of them have any social skills and wound eachother up to the point they started snapping at each other and it started to get quite nasty, so remembering the advice on this thread I did intervene and distract her with treats.

And then today.....unfortunately she got attacked by 2 Salukis belonging to a local man. It was awful. Using my body language and things I had learnt on similar threads I managed to break up the worst of it until their "owner" got them away, but it was horrible.

I really hope she isn't scared enough to become dog-aggressive - I will be keeping a close eye on her now.

One of ours became dog aggressive (probably better described as dog defensive) at a ripe old age. She is now 12, but this is because she has arthritis. She has had simply too many bad experiences with other dogs barging into her and hurting her so htis is her way of preventing it. One of the things that infuriates me about owners of cannonball Labs and superbouncy "let's sit on other dogs" types is that they don't know if the other dog may well be injured, or carrying something like arthritis.

well sadly my big boy has been attacked 3 times, once as a 15 week old pup by a full size weineramer (sp?) and that was the worst, once by a lab on lead and once he was set upon by 3 dogs, 2 of which were known to be aggressive but still off lead . Everytime, he has just droped to the floor and taken it :( I feel quite sorry for him as he is very submissive, but i think its his look. His big, dark brown, and his fur makes it differicult to see if his heckles are up. I have continued to take him out to meet other dogs, i dont want him to become fearful. He is starting to calm right down and does now tend to leave other dogs alone, if they show any aggressive behaviour.

I do try at all costs to avoid any interaction with a dog or owner if I do not know them.

For my dogs peace of mine I need them to know that they will not be jumped on, or harassed by other dogs. Do let your dogs have interaction but by choosy!

I do not walk my dogs on a popular dog walking area as that is where you will meet so many badly trained dogs and owners who to be honest do not give a dam about their own dogs behaviour. If I hear "he only wants to play" as their dogs try to push my lot to the floor by their necks, or "he has never done that before" Umm yes he did it to me last week! or "Hes a rescue" so I have an excuse for a badly behaved dog! again I will scream !!!!!

have been lucky that ralph hasnt been attacked.

he does get small dogs having a go at him, but he just looks at them with disdain and wonders what they heck they are doing.

he loves other dogs, but hasnt bowled one over. generally sniffs and greets and give happy woof and his tails spins like a rocket and his bum wriggles.

when passing other dogs we get him to wait, if the other owner says its ok to greet then we do, but always wait for them to say so first.

Mine is a bugger for grabbing other dogs, barking at them and bowling them over in an attempt to play - is it something I need to address and if so, how do I change the way she plays? This thread is making me really paranoid! She is only 10 months - will she grow out of it?

PS 99% of the owners we walk with are happy with it as we all love getting our dogs together to tire them out. The other 1%, where she annoys the dogs way too much, we just stay away from through mutual agreement.

Is this ok?

I feel a bit lost in a minefield about all of this.

Blimey where does everyone walk their dogs ? a war zone ?

I have a bouncy lab and in the 18 months I have had her I have only come across one dog that got ( in my view) aggressive .

My dog now seems to sense or is better at recall than I give her credit for - today we came across an old retriever , I called my dog back she stood looked , perhaps sensed no fun to be had and never went near it.

Feesh - My dogs rough play together, and it does look quite violent. Lots of teeth and growls, and grabbing of each other's scruffs. It's fine, it's play, and it is a good way for a young upstart to learn the limits of what is acceptable to other dogs.

But, I know my dogs, and they know each other, so I can see immediately if they need time out to calm down, and one, other, or both go on leads for a bit. I also wouldn't for a minute suggest it is a good idea to let your dog get into rough play with a strange dog, as you have no idea of their temperament.

Let your dog play, but intervene if necessary. A dog that isn't diving back into the fray has had enough. Put her on a lead if she is stressing another dog.

Thanks Scrappy. It's a funny world I live in as all dog owners over here know eachother, and we never meet eachother randomly, but always through pre-arranged beach meet ups. I am just really worried about eventually moving back to the uk with some kind of nightmare dog with no social skills of the sort everyone moans about on this forum!!!

I don't for a minute think you will Feesh as your dog sounds very well socialised, and you obviously care about training her properly.

Interesting you mention pushing to the floor, Minimuu. Can you expand on this please?

The reason I ask, is that I've heard a lot of anti-dominance theory people say that dogs do NOT in fact "pin" other dogs; that actually, it's the "victim" dog (for want of a better word) who willingly goes down and rolls over.

However, I have to say that the last time (in particular) my dog was harassed, it certainly seemed that the other dog went STRAIGHT for her neck and almost threw her down. I accept that dog body language is very subtle, and often things happen so quickly that it would take a video, with the advantage of slow motion, to be able to see exactly what happened, but in my admittedly fairly limited experience I'd definitely say that pinning seems to happen.

What do you reckon?

When my dog was about 8 months old she was attacked by a big dog, whose owner shouted "she only wants to play" as it hurtled towards my scared pup, who we were holding. It got her by the neck and shook her a couple of times, it was horrible.

She is now 2 and is still nervous and aggressive of any dog who comes bounding over at 100 mph, I am very vigilant whilst she is off lead and I always take hold of her when I see other dogs and people in the distance. I find so many owners think its ok to let their dog run amok and have not control over their animals - it makes me so angry.

My girl now goes out with a walker and other dogs once a week to help with her dog fear and it seems to be working - she let two dalmations sniff her yesterday :)