What's the best way to train a dog?

[BertieBotts]

DP and I are possibly thinking of getting a dog at some point in the future. It will be a few years I think, as we can't have dogs in our current house, but I like to be prepared

I've never owned a dog and know next to nothing about them. DP's family are big dog lovers and have always had dogs. Now, the subject came up about training dogs, because I've seen members of his family threaten the dog with a slap and give one on (very rare) occasion, not hard, and 99% of the time a verbal command was enough for the dog, but still. I thought this was really old fashioned these days? The only thing I could offer was that I vaguely remembered something on a dog training TV programme about using a clicker - I wasn't sure if the clicker was a reward thing or a negative assocation type thing, DP said he thought this seemed more cruel (if it was meant as a punishment/deterrent) because dogs have very sensitive hearing and so it was like it was going straight for their weakness.

So I'd just be interested to know what training methods people recommend and what general thoughts are these days?

The clicker is a positive reinforcement I think - to start with you click and treat/praise/whatever and they associate the sound with doing the task right. (I think - not really done it myself in earnest). Sure someone else will be along soon with better info. I think its something a lot of people find helpful and its not cruel, but you can train without. I tend to use hand gestures as well as verbal command, and lots of praise. Definitely no slapping!

Another tip (from a shepherd) is that a good way of training is to associate commands with the behaviour they're doing anyway. So, if his sheepdog pup runs round the flock one way following its natural herding instinct, he then says 'Coom bye'. In a domestic situation, if you see your pup starting to sit, you say sit - that sort of thing.

Ahh oops I got the clicker thing totally wrong then What's the one where you drop some metal discs? Perhaps I was getting confused?

Get thee copies of The Culture Clash, Don't Shoot The Dog and In Defence of Dogs. Encompasses most modern dog behaviour/training theories. :)

The most absolutely essential thing is to attend a weekly training class led by someone who utilises positive reinforcement type methods (APDT list of accredited trainers is usually a good place to start looking), starting out with puppy socialisation classes and continuing throughout the dog's first few years. If you can give the dog a job to do (agility, competitive obedience, flyball, herding, pet gundog training, even doggy bloody dancing) and continue to do regular structured activity around this, so much the better.

Clicker training is fab - and fun too - take a look at the kikopup stuff on youtube - she is sooooooooooo good!!!

It works so quickly too - we have a 13 week old pup who we have had for 3 weeks - he sits, lies down, comes here, goes to bed, leaves alone, does not jump up and walks to heel (mainly) - everyone says how good he is - just 2 weeks concerted clicker training and he is getting there - more to do on leaving food/poop/mouldy old leaves alone etc, but we will get there too!!

The clicker is always a reward - a substitute for food based rewards that you start out with. Though sometimes - just sometimes you still give a food reward with the clicker for some time to come... (make it a game - will you get food, won't you? will it be 1 treat or more?)

"associate commands with the behaviour they're doing anyway" this is absolutely the crux of training. they do something - either of their own accord or because your lure them to do it (often with a treat). you start giving this thing a lable - (sit/lie/come etc) and you say this when they do it. gradually you move the word - very soon you're saying it before they do it, - and that's whan it stops being a label and starts being a command. it's unbelievably quick - and awesome to watch. training a dog though positive reinforcement is one of life's great pleasures - it gets them to behave (obviously) but it creates a real bond. I swear my dog smiles when he comes running up to me because I said come.

if you're thinking of getting a dog I can;t recommened this book enough. it goes through everything - and it's where I learned that basic tip about training. I now have a dog that I can get to stop mid-run as he's hurtling towards something he absolutely loves. he will sit and/or lie down in the middle of a field when I'm 20 yards away. and I love him so much for it!

I can recommend cheese strings

"I can recommend cheese strings "

Oh yes they are puppy nirvana!!! - but beware the parpy consequences!!!!!!

Do you know what's worse in the parp department than cheese strings? Slivers of pepperami. The pup goes bonkers for them, but the stench when I go in to the kitchen in the morning is visible.

Perseverance, consistency, praise, treats and a very firm voice for where you need a "no!'.
I also have found that when I walk away dog will panic and follow me, so hve been using it a lot.

You have get the timing spot on with the clicker.
It's worth a try - I didn't get it, lots of people do.

sorry - didn't explain it well... the clicker is like an instant "yes that is exactly what I want you to do" followed by the treat.

But yep - you do need good timing - during focused training time is best - just had some puppy social and had friend's 4 month pup leaving the treat bag alone in 6 minutes (she asked as she was having trouble getting him to ignore the bag and pay attention to her during training) Now just have to "train" my friend to keep reinforcing the message..... that may be somewhat harder as her pup is a great soppy mongrel with big brown eyes who she dotes on..... :)

This is all brilliant and really helpful, thank you.

From what I understand about the kind of "carrot/stick" methods you can't just rely on one - so positive reinforcement can be the bulk of the training, but do you not need some kind of negative reinforcer for when they do something bad as well? Or is a firm "No" enough for most dogs? The way DP described it it sounded like the methods they would use are mainly treat-training, lots of praise, general positive reinforcement, he said the negative reinforcement was something you would typically only need to do 3-4 times in the dog's life, but I just thought from things I'd vaguely seen/read that hitting to fill this purpose was considered bad form these days. Is it replaced with some other, more humane method or does the positive part of the training suffice?

"No" or "Ah" - it;s funny sound, this one - works for me now. After years of living together and training eachother.
We had a rough pup patch and called in a trainer - he used something called "noise aversion", basicaly you shake a pills plastic bottle full of pellets in the general direction of the pup.
Hitting does not work, you have to stop the dog doing something rather than punishing afterwards it because they have no concept of consequences. Or so I'm told. Just like most some men, really.
Hence the timing of the clicker and the reward, it has to be simultanious.

A sorrowful 'Bad dog' is as much negativity as you need, IMO.

If the dog does something bad (e.g peeing indoors) you just ignore it. When they do the right thing (e.g. peeing outside in the garden) you go really OTT nuts with joy for them and give them lots of attention and treats.

So you're teaching them an ALTERNATIVE behaviour to do instead of the bad thing. This is why it's called positive reinforcement training.

So, say you don't want the dog to jump on the sofa. You don't give the dog a bollocking every time he does it. Instead, you teach him a positive alternative - i.e. when you lay on your mat while we are watching telly, you will get lots of fuss and treats.

End result is a positive, confident and happy dog who knows what's expected of him, and so doesn't have to act in any kind of aggressive or unpredictable way in response to aggressive/unpredictable owners.

Yes that's the same thing DP said, the positive attention for the good behaviour, but that sometimes you need to shock them out of doing something - but perhaps a short sharp "No" would be enough in this situation.

Anyway you've all given me the confidence that it sounds fairly simple as long as you're consistent.

If you can, go and watch dog training classes. There will be any kind of dog with any kind of behaviour and any kind of owner. Not all training techniques will suit any dog, so if you are after a particular breed it would be worth looking into more specific training. Ask as many questions as you can think of to as many people.
There are lots of theories about dog training flying about, and new research is revealing results, so it's a bit of a minefield.
We don't use a clicker and we don't use treats for our most recent dog. Instead we have to use our bodies. It is the only thing that works for him and us.

I second the suggestion of buying the book 'the culture clash' totally brilliant, and getting a clicker training book. I clicker trained my dog for commands (and lots of tricks ) and used positive reinforcement for the rest. She is my first dog and is a breed which is known for being stubborn/hard to train (whether you believe there is anything in this or not) and she is awesome, an amazing and happy, dog.

When Mouse does something utterly not on, like trying to steal food from counters (frequent) or jumping up at one of the kids (rare), I seem to instinctively go for a high pitched yelp - shocks him into stopping the behaviour, but doesn't hurt.

It can be a tad embarrassing when guests are there though

Totally agree that "The Culture Clash" should be compulsory reading for all dog owners.

The problem with "No" or any interruptor is that it doesn't actually prevent the behaviour happening in the first place, so it's far better to teach them what you want to do instead.

Kikopup has a video on Youtube on teaching a positive interruptor.

So how do you prevent them doing things like biting or destroying furniture etc? You can't praise them constantly just for not doing these things, can you? What's the alternative behaviour you're looking to teach in this instance?

Or if you have two dogs who are fighting, what's the best way to break them up?

Should probably just read the book