AIBU to talk to vet about options? (sad)

[daftoldbird]

I have a faithful 12 yo hound that we have had since he was the size of a beanie baby. His breed's average life expectancy is 9 years, but they can live to 14 or 15. My dog has already had a large operation, 3 years back when he had pancreatic cancer and has had a good life since then.....BUT he is now regularly incontinent at night , with vomit and worse. The vet reckons it is liver cancer. There are expensive confirmatory tests she could perform but at the end of it, there would be no treatment.

My dilemma is that, during the day, the dog is still happy enough on walks and to sleep in his bed BUT I was up again at 2.30am this morning clearing liquid offerings (which smelt so appalling that it could not be left until morning), and don't know how much longer this is reasonable. We are due to go away over Christmas and I am not sure that our dogsitter would be prepared to do the necessary clearing up (I am going to check with her today).

So, AIBU to entertain the idea of giving him a dignified end before he feels too ill. Might he be feeling rubbish and not showing it? Or am I being wholly selfish, and really just worried about my own holiday arrangments and carpets?

I know it is daft because my DD and my DH are both meat eaters (I am on the very odd occasion, too) and so we are responsible for the deaths of many animals each year and I don't judge that as unacceptable or feel too guilty (I only buy meat where I know the farm and the slaughter methods), but somehow this feels different.

I am looking for people to tell me this is the right thing to do btw! Or else to tell me not to be so selfish. Please try not to say it is up to me because I can't take that responsibility!

I've had to make this decision many times so I really feel for you. I take the view that it is better to let them go gently a week too soon than a day too late. I left it too long once and had to take a distressed animal euthanised - never again. It does sound like its time to do he kindest thing you can for him and help him die gently. Be there with him, stroke his head and tell him it's ok - he will feel safe and loved - its always been a very peaceful end for my dogs and cats.

Thank you catsrus. I had not thought of that "week too soon" versus "day too late". I have never lost a pet before so am finding this horrific. It feels like playing God, and I don't know what right I have to do that .

Our vet is only 50 metres away so perhaps she will come to our house and we can do it where the dog is most comfortable.

I have teenage children, do you have experience of how involved to allow DC to be? I don't want them to shoulder the burden of responsibility so I want them to be clear that it is me that is taking the decision. Does that make sense, or should I try to get them to agree?

It is a very difficult decision to have to make.

My dog was incontinent towards the end but only to the degree she would pooh on the carpet iyswim we didn't have the liquid offerings.

But I think there needs to come a point where you start to think about quality of life, and a dog that has previously been used to going out to do his business who suddenly finds that he can't do that because he either can't get there in time or simply no longer knows when he needs to go may be distressed because he has been trained to go outside, iyswim.

And if there are other underlying health problems then you know that realistically, the end is near. But because you don't know the extent of those problems you also don't realistically know how near, or just how bad it might be.

In the case of my dog she had a tumour that had become ulsorated and I made the decision in conjunction with my vet.

It is hard. It is, in fact, the hardest decision I have ever had to make, even though I know that it was the right thing.

But what you have to remember is that as someone who loves your animals, part of loving those animals also means that we have the ability to make things easier for them, their lives, and sometimes, we have the ability to help them to die in peace whereas that might not have been the case.

As your children are teenagers they are old enough to know what you are intending, and why. But I wouldn't necessarily let them have a hand in the decision - I knew what I was doing was the right thing, but it didn't stop me wondering whether it really was. They don't need to bear that responsibility - it will be enough for them that they're losing their dog without having a hand in the process.

Thanks, wannabe. That is all sensible advice. Yes, the dog is distressed and unhappy at night now - partly because he now has to sleep in the kitchen rather than in my DD's bedroom, but partly perhaps because he can't go out when he needs to in a rush. Maybe that is the sign. I briefly considered fibbing to the DC - "I took him to the vet who took one look and said we have no choice" or "he dropped dead at 10am" but I try to never lie because I feel it is better for them to learn about life as it really is, and to be guided rather than completely shielded.

I was in your position just a few months ago. We knew it was cancer but our Goldie would not have tolerated all the tests as he could not be safely aenesthetised. I made the decision on the day he couldn't get up and had to be carried by two of us to the garden to pee. Yes, he was still happy to be stroked and groomed and watch the birds. My husband was about to go away on a work trip and I knew that I couldn't shift 90lbs of Golden Retriever myself. It was the right time.

I'm in different position in that we've always been a multi pet household and I've always insisted that the dcs be with their pets when they have to be put to sleep, whether it's a hamster or a dog, so they have always come along with us (where possible and not at school etc) and been in the room with the animal. I have always told them that this is part of being a responsible pet owner, to make sure that the animal's last minutes are with the people it loves and that it feels no fear or distress.

We had a Golden retriever when they were little and there were 5 of us in the room with her and the vet, my middle dc was particularly close to the dog so she stroked her head and told her she loved her and it was going to be OK - this dog actually loved going to the vet so walked in wagging her tail and died very peacefully. The next dog was anxious about the vet so she came out to us and put her to sleep in her usual spot sleeping at the base of my desk.

I would say to the dcs that it looks like it's time to help him die as if you leave it any longer then there is a strong chance he will suffer and you do not want that. Make sure they have the chance to say goodbye and give them the opportunity to be with him at the end. I always tell mine that they can only be there if they are not going to get upset while the process is taking place as the only reason for being there is to make sure the dog is calm and unafraid with those it loves. Once it's over you can all weep and bawl your eyes out - the vets are used to that so don't worry about it, but for the dog's sake you need to have a calm and loving atmosphere in the room while the vet is getting things ready and inserting the needle. this is pretty accurate about what happens. You also need to decide about the body - do you want the vet to deal with the remains, take the dog home for burial or have him cremated and get the ashes back? you will be asked that at the time. The latter is expensive, well over £100 last time I had it done - so just be prepared.

I hope it all goes well for you, the dog and the dcs.

Hi, daftoldbird. As someone who made the same difficult decision a couple of weeks ago for my 16.5yo dog, I can totally sympathise

I was hoping there would be a definind event, but he just dwindled slowly downhill. He was very thin, and totally incontinent but eating fine, and so senile that he didn't seem unduly troubled about his incontinence (he didn't even know who I was) I have to point out at this point that I am a vet but I STILL found it very very dificult to decide when was the right time- we had many "discussions" about it over the last year or so.

I do think it sounds like it might be that time for your boy . I hope you can make the decision without too much turmoil. For me, once the decision was made it was almost a relief. Yes, I miss him, but I don't miss the agonising over whether or not he was happy.

As for the dc, my dad tried to get me to tell mine that Oldboy just died, but it just isn't the way I work. Especially with me being a vet, and the children spending a lot of time at the surgery, they know a lot of the ins and outs. I gave them the choice and dd2 (6) wanted to be there, so she was, and she did really well. Good luck

Thank you Joolyjoolyjoo and horsemadmum and catsrus.

I have recovered now from my lack of sleep a bit and it all seems not so difficult during the day when the dog has access to the garden. DD1 has an important university interview a week today and DD2 has some sixth form entry results so actually I want to keep things on a very even keel this week and am putting off the decision - if things deteriorate rapidly then of course my hand will be forced, but I suspect that my dog will continue to have up days and down days, with a gradual steady decline.

I spoke to our dogsitter and she (a saint) has said that she is fine with the incontinence and she would not want me to take any action on her account, so perhaps this can all limp into the New Year.

Someone in the park this morning told me that I will "know" when it is the right time. Perhaps like horsemadmom did. I have never done this before and I never thought it would be this hard. I admire you all for having tackled it well and with such kindness. Thanks for all the advice.

I am so sorry to hear this about your dear old dog. I think it is the right decision for you to take as an adult - although it's right your children should know about it, and may well have input this is very much what I think of as an adult responsibility. I think when the time comes, it's great to ask the vet to come to you, allowing your pet to pass peacefully in their own home. Your childen may well wish to be present, but I think if they are not happy to, I would be very reluctant to force them. As others have said, the primary importance is to create a peaceful, calm environment for your dog, so if your children are very distressed (which is completely understandable) it may not even be in your dog's best interest for them to be there.

In terms of knowing the right time, there is a scale called the HHMM scale developed by an American vet link here which goes through the issues to consider. This is always such an emotionally loaded choice to make that you might find it helpful to think about it in a more ordered way, and this scale tries to help you do that.

Wishing you all the best at this difficult time.

Thank you for that link. He scores quite highly, really, so I am content to know that the dog is okay from a welfare point of view. He still enjoys walks most days; he is losing weight as he can't eat properly and it doesn't stay inside but he seems well hydrated; and although he looks askance at stairs, he can climb them with encouragement and is otherwise mobile. It's mainly the incontinence and having to ban him from most of the house at night that is hard.

I forgot to mention that we were with our goldie at the end including my 9 year old. We gave the kids the option of not going to the vet, going but staying in the waiting room or being with him. All opted to be there.
We held him and stroked him and told him that he was the best dog in the world. It was very peaceful. Very quick. Extremely gentle. He just drifted off.
Please don't worry- if you have trusted your vet all these years, your dog will be very calm.
Even without the vet confirming our decision (she felt our timing was just right), I don't regret it one bit. We adored our dog but he was just going to continue to decline and possibly have painful complications quickly. The prognosis from the time that the cancer was diagnosed was 2 weeks if nature ran its course. We saved our wonderful, beautiful, gentle friend from suffering and indignity. The grief after was absolutely searing but we were sad for OUR loss. We knew that we had done right by him.