So, I understand the whole puppy farming thing but what exactly is a back yard breeder?

[2T2T]

I made a call this eve to a 'breeder' or Spaniels. Cut a long story short, I could see the bitch but not the dog. No idea who the dog was as the bitch 'accidentally' mated with it. . The 'breeder,' offered advice but no insurance/back up/puppy pack. I asked about transporting the pup home and he said jsut bring a blanket or towel or something. . I suspect he was a back yard breeder but what exactly are BYBs? Are they literally unscupulous arseholes who just want to make money? Needless to say, I will not be purchasing the puppy from him but I do feel very sorry for the puppies . In all honesty, putting the whole overflow of rescue dogs issue to one side, what are the problems you could expect to encounter with a BYB's puppy?

Where did you find this "breeder"? How could he be sure it was a spaniel his bitch mated with?

I'm not sure he could !

To me a BYB is someone who breeds their dog for cash. Someone with no experience. Someone who doesn't know anything about the problems that crossbreeding, inbreeding, overbreeding etc can cause. Someone that breeds because 'fluffy wuffu snookhams would make a wonderful mum' or 'it's dangerous not to let a bitch have a litter' or 'I can't afford to spey'

Personally I wish that no-one bred these days. I understand people that do it to keep breeds alive (I have a friend with a Duck Tolling Retriever, there are only 96 in the whole of the UK) but there are just too damn many dogs around now, does the UK really need another 6 Labradors?

But that's just my little rant. The last time I looked (because I don't want to any more) there were 33 dogs per minute being PTS. That too many

You may also like to read THIS

The link that Eve has posted is excellent and explains in great detail and clarity why BYBs are bad news.

Apart from the rescue issue (and I find it hard to say "apart from the resuce issue", since it's literally life and death for the dogs involved) there is a major health issue if the breeder hasn't carried out all the appropriate health checks on both parents. You could very easily be looking at a vets bill on legs, quite apart from the misery (both to you and the dog itself) caused by suffering some pretty hardcore degenerative conditions. Look at Syringomyelia in CKC, all the breeds with hip and eye problems that need expensive difficult ops or end up prematurely blind. Why would you want to buy a dog that is facing this genetic timebomb?

Also, would a BYB be doing thorough and proper socialisation? Is their care for the bitch (while pregnant and after whelping) really up to scratch? Has she been having the right diet? Regular worming? Prompt and appropriate vet treatment? What will happen to her after she has finished breeding? What will happen to any unsold pups, or to any pups that need to be returned?

A BYB has no independent verification of conditions for dogs in their care - no inspection by local authority. God knows there are some grim licensed premises in Wales but having an inspection regime in the public domain means that welfare campaigners can at least try to shine some light on things.

If you really must go down the road of getting a puppy, please for God's sake use a reputable, responsible breeder who is committed to producing happy, healthy dogs. They won't be cheap, but breeding pups in a responsible, high welfare way is not a budget option. Also, please, please consider a rescue dog, if you are looking for a specific breed there are excellent and reputable breed rescues who can help you find the perfect pet.

I agree with Dallas, there are too many dogs around now! We have 6 and the next dog I get will be rescue (if I ever get another). I come from a working household, our dogs are all (bar one) working dogs and the amount of people I know that have pups from their "lovely bitch" and someone else's "smashing dog" is unreal. It's not on IMO.
Get a rescue dog! Please?!

thanks you all -
Scuttle , just to clarify, I will not be purchasing a dog from a BYB. I have been looking at rescue dogs for 6 months or so now and have applied for about half a dozen during that time. I recently had an horrendous experience with rescue Yorkie which I posted on here about. From a 'reputable' rescue. he was a biter, not a nipper, an actual snarling, teeth baring, lunging 'i-mean-to-hurt-you biter. The rescue took him back and then admitted he had had 'fear aggression' in the past and didn't really like unknown adults . Why they rehomed him to me - a novice dog owner - was beyond belief! It was very hard for my children to get so excited about having our new pet and then to watch him leave again. My son still asks when he is coming back . That is what got me started on the puppy route. I would still very much prefer to take in a rescue dog but it is taking an awfully long time.

I wasn't glibly saying 'apart from the rescue issue', I was meaning, putting the rescue issue to one side for the purpose of this post.

I am a strong advocate of rescue and all the amazing work they do. It literally breaks my heart to see all the dogs of all ages dumped in rescue because they no longer fit in to the family routine etc.
I will read the link after breakfast. Thanks all for posting - it's greatly appreciated

My whippet is from a BYB. We ended up with her when despite lowering their price from £150 to £100 to £50 they still could not sell her. They were going to drown her if they could not find a home for her that night. This was 6pm long after any vets/rehoming centers that could have helped them had closed so where on earth they thought they could find between then and 10pm (her deadline) is beyond me. That is what happens to excess pups from BYBs.

She is also a terrible example of the breed. Had she been bought as a working dog/racing dog/by someone who wanted an actual Whippet she'd have been gotten shot of long ago. She is no bigger than a large cat. She'd be as much use at hare coursing as budgie would be. The hare would be twice the size of her. Fortunately she has no serious health issues, but that is nothing more than luck. She is very, very timid, despite excellent socialisation since she has been with us. She can be snappy in an air-snap way but I believe this is common with Whippets, still a snappy dog should not be bred from, I have no idea what her mother was like, it is possible the snapping is something that was 'bred' into her.

The only major problem with her is due to her size and shape we are limited on where we can buy her collars, coats and other pretty things from

People do comment on her size, those who know the breed believe she is underfed as she is so skinny and small. No matter how much/what we feed her she gets no bigger/fatter.

Where in the country are you? If you want to restart down the rescue route we could help you. Personally as a parent myself I would be looking to rehome a dog who has been fostered with children prior to rehoming rather than one who had been kennelled. Even the best dog trainer cannot fully judge a dogs temprement without them being in a home. Many Tears rescue is a good rescue for this, as are all sighthound/greyhound rescues. I can highly reccomend greyhounds and lurchers as excellent family pets.

While we're on this topic, I thought I'd mention something my dogsitter pointed out to me this week. She's a responsible breeder (I've known her several years and she's only bred one litter in that time) and had a copy of the Kennel Club breed register, listing all the puppies registered with the KC that quarter. You can tell from the details supplied how many puppies a bitch has had previously, how old she is, who the stud dog was, etc. Going through 'her' breed and interpreting the data that was right there, she was horrified/depressed to see litters registered to bitches who were barely a year old, sizeable litters bred on successive seasons, the same stud dogs used over and over, stud dogs she'd never heard of (and so not show-proven quality), lots of owners she didn't recognise from the breed club which she's been involved with for years. In other words, a lot of puppy farmers, or backyard 'we wanted Snoopy to have pups' breeders who just picked the nearest matching dog in the park.

And these are puppies registered with the Kennel Club. God knows about all the ones that aren't. It's not as if the Kennel Club go round these places and check; they just accept litter registrations from two KC registered parents. There's nothing to stop a puppy farmer getting hold of a pedigree pair and churning out as many puppies as they can sell.

Putting aside the whole other argument about whether the KC has an ethical responsibility to act on the data they charge to record when breeding guidelines are clearly set out by breed associations, it just underlines how many questions you should ask when researching your puppy. There are conscientious, caring breeders out there, but a KC registration alone isn't a cast-iron guarantee that the dog will have come from a good place. At the same time, however, if there is no KC registration and the dog is a pedigree breed, you should be very very cautious indeed.

Sorry for the essay, it just makes me so... .

The one the kennel club does is makes sure that the bitch and stud dog has had the relevant testing and that it is all up to date.They also would not let you register a litter unless you have the pedigree of both dogs. Therefore a bitch would have to been over a year old to of had there hips scored.They are also changing the amount of litter a bitch can have to four in a life time. Obviously it is not going to stop people have unregistered litters etc. They also make sure that all the pups have to relevant testing done before they are sold so for our breed that means eye and hearing tests.
The Kennel Club Assured Breeders list is a good place to start also look at the link to see what to look out for if you decide to get a pup.

www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2101

I agree that the Kennel Club is a very good place to start, but potential puppy buyers still need to ask a lot of questions - which obviously a good breeder would welcome. Yes, it's recommended, but you don't have to prove health checks have been done to register a litter, just that both the sire and dam are KC registered themselves. And although KC guidelines state you're not allowed to breed more than four litters a year without a licence (and therefore become liable to more official checks), there are ways of getting around it, by registering some litters to family members, for instance.

I'm absolutely not knocking the sort of conscientious breeders who care about their dogs, make sure all tests are done before a mating, and join Assured Breeders schemes. I'm just trying to point out that 'backyard breeders' cynically exploit the fact that most people see a KC pedigree as being the be-all-and-end-all, and that it's not always what it seems. I know the Kennel Club is starting to enforce some standards rather than just recommending them - from next year it will only register four litters per lifetime, not six - but ultimately, it's only a registration service, not an authority.

Again, sorry if this sounds soapboxey but Many Tears breaks my heart on a regular basis. Not all puppy farmers operate in massive sheds; some just keep five or six dogs in the backyard, breed the poor creatures back to back for six seasons, then (at best) dump them into rescue, sixty or even seventy puppies later, once they're physically exhausted. And then get some more.

Sorry, you already pointed out the four litter change!

OP, I agree with your reasons for wanting a puppy and I understand that following your experience why you would be wary of using a rescue.

I just though you might like to know that currently at Many Tears there are a number of puppies needing homes. I'm gutted that I agreed with DH's "No dogs until after Xmas" rule because there is a litter where 3 of the pups are the spitting image of our lovely MuttDog...but I'll bet they'll be gone by the time we can offer them a home.

Sorry, got sidetracked. What I meant to say was if the breed isn't that important to you then you could do a lot worse than a rescue mongrel. You can't be 100% sure what you are getting, but then as you've seen for yourself, you can't always be sure from a breeder. MuttDog is probably a Collie/Springer, and I'd agree she's got them in her, but we wonder if there's a bit of whippet in there too (and at times she looks sheer Pointer). Whatever she is, she's a great dog, wonderful temperament, clever and super healthy (after a bad start).

My friend however bought a Cocker from a BYB, paid a lot of money and the poor thing is buggered. He is a lovely dog but his hips and knees are fucked. She pays a fortune for Metacam and monthly injections, and it breaks my heart to see MuttDog trying to get him to play, but he can't because it hurts too much (they are only 2).

Anyway food for thought maybe. Good luck in your endeavours. I'm off for some puppy porn on MT (God, that doesn't have the same ring to it as Property Porn does it?)

I have just been homechecked by a rescue and will be bringing home our new pooch tomorrow. One less dog in rescue and one happy family here

Hurray! Hope you'll all be very very happy together - pics, pls!

she arrives tomorrow - wil, defo be putting up pics!