Pack theory

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

Not a thread about a thread, but spawned by it iyswim.

I had a dog growing up. I remember clearly being told by just about everyone that the dog had to know it was bottom of the pecking order, so was fed last, not allowed on seats etc. She was a fab little dog and never any problem. My father would tap her on the nose with a rolled up newspaper when she was a pup to chastise her for whatever behaviour he thought undesirable (peeing in the house, stealing food etc). She learned not to do these things.

Now I have a puppy, and we go to training classes. My trainer is all about rewarding the good and ignoring the bad, and I am persevering. That's not to say I haven't gone 'Oh, Jasper!' when I spot him piddling on the rug or bin diving, but I haven't and won't go down the newspaper route. He is a good pup considering, and eager to please. I am still not allowing him on the furniture or feeding him from the table, though, as to me that just sensible (in that I want him to realise he is not allowed to do everything the human contingent can).

I have noticed that he's more apt to listen to me, though, and will try and steal food from the DC's. So should I totally throw the 'pack' idea out of my head? How do I make sure that he knows the boundaries within our home? And how do I make sure that he respects and listens to the DC as well as me?

Kate, that's a brilliant example of Dogs Training Us!!

I know. And I totally didn't twig until a trainer on another board pointed it out in exactly those terms.... "Haha! Your Dog Has Trained You!!!"

Hi Joolyjoolyjoo,
Great post, I couldnt agree more with what you are saying about buying a breed and then expecting it to behave as something else. Sadly most people only look at the aesthetic side of the dog! When I was working at my first job, in a rescue (i was only 16 so still very sensetive to it all) we once had a woman come in leave her dog there because it didnt match the new sofa/ carpet. I was almost physically sick! I also dont like the attitude a lot of people have with buying dogs because they look "mean" and using them as a status symbol. It always gives the breed bad press aswell.

CalamityKate,
My dogs work when asked and do not get a reward in food, it more is the act of doing it. My old girl did agility and obedience shows for a few years but has now retired. She did it just for the enjoyment she got out of it and probably seeing me chuffed with her and the fuss at the end of it all.
She has now retired from all this and i will be honest, I do let her get away with more now and she has become opinionated in her old age. She still walks to heel on and off the lead and all the basics. when I got her I was 16 and decided to make even the most mundane things such as walking to heel a "game". She took to it very well and has always wanted to work for me, She loves being outdoors and I think that is a big part of it aswell.

Again I think a lot is down to breed, I personally love my rough collies because everything about them has always suited me (aside from when they shed and the house has dog hair tumble weeds in it). I'm thinking about starting agility again with my new girl next summer, she had recently had a litter when i purchased her so have given her time to recover from that and get her used to living in a house (she had always been in kennels).

I must say I agree with hickerybobp on this one, just from my experience. We took our dog to classes that focused on training under the non-pack mentality methods and the dog became increasingly aggressive to the point where we had to re-home him.

That's sort of my point. Your dog worked for fuss, and being a worky breed enjoyed the activity for its own sake. Of course you don't see a farmer running across a field to give his Collie a treat every time it lies down on command; its reward for obeying is being released and allowed to herd again.

Huskies don't need to be rewarded every few miles. Running is what they live for. You don't need to offer a treat to entice a Lurcher to chase a rabbit.

But none of those dogs are working out of respect, or just because they should. They are working FOR REWARD every bit as much as a dog who is trained using treats. It's just the the rewards differ.

I'd hazard a guess that if you'd taken him to a class that focussed on pack mentality methods he wouldn't have ended up rehomed; he'd have ended up put down.

There is so much I could comment on Hickerybobp thread and the reasons as to why pack theory is not relevant but..... can't be bothered really as it has been said before and loads of links to it

However two things really concern me in your post - one leaving down dry food for dogs. This really should not be recommended due to the rate that dry food is digested it can cause major digestive issues for dogs.

Also if you hand feed a food guarding dog within days it will see you as the person who gives food and see your hand as a positive and will not see the need to guard food. (and better for the dogs digestion).

Hi minimuu,
My dogs both really dont show a huge ammount of interest in food, this is why it is safe for my dogs, after I wrote that I did say "I know this would not be suitable for every dog" as I am aware a lot of dogs would over eat.
In regard to hand feeding, I was only saying this with very young children.

CalamityKate,
I do agree that she did get her reward in just the act of doing it, and this was kind of my point :S I know treats do work, if they didnt people wouldnt use them, but in my experience they are a complete flop. Maybe it's because my dogs simply dont have much interest in food, it doesnt work for them. To be honest I dont really like food driven dogs but i suppose what ever works for you. I like the bit you wrote about hearding, I live on a sheep farm/livery yard and was concerned when I first got my younger rough collie that she might not have the restraint to ignore them. When she first met a sheep that was up on the track, it started to run, and she ran in the opposite direction and then behind me, she cant stand them!

MilfGalore
I dont think you can blame that entirely on a style of training used. What breed of dog was it? just out of interest.

I think that the old ways of training do have a place, otherwise they would never have worked in the past, and our parents and grandparents dogs would have all been badly trained.

My poor older dog, The Moog (if anybody here remembers Willow the whisp) is looking a bit sheepish as the shooters are out a couple of fields away.

You seem to have written an essay, hickorybohp! Well done for all the work you've done for dog rescue, and for training your own dogs well. However, I don't see that pack theory has much to do with many of the things that you said.

I understand that people are more familiar with older ways of training, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take advantage of better ways of doing things. Behavioural scientists have discovered such a lot about dog behaviour and how dogs learn over the last few decades. We might as well take advantage of it.

I think some people have a misconception that not using pack theory means letting your dogs run riot. I'm not saying this applies to you, hickory, but it seems to be a common idea. That's not the case at all; dogs still need rules and boundaries. I think the newer approaches, which concentrate on setting the dog up for success in the first place, lead to a better relationship between dog and owner than trying to dominate and punish. They also work, but don't take my word for it; as minimuu says, there are lots of good books out there that explain dog psychology.

Personally I would say don't completely throw out the pack mentality theory seeing as dogs will naturally group together, we have noticed a change in our year old pup when our second dog arrived he has become more dominant over the second dog, not in any way aggressive but in their mannerisms you can definately see which one is the "Alpha".

A dog the same as a child needs boundaries and if you are lucky enough to see a bitch with her puppies you will see that they will take a pup by the scruff or pin them to the ground if the pup is misbehaving.

However this is simply my own personal point of view, however if your dog is displaying behaviour you feel is inappropriate a sharp NO or loud noise such as "AH AH" will distract them from what they are doing and bring their attention back to you.

OK lets gets this sorted once and for all (if only!)

If you have more than one dog watch them together carefully. You will see in some instances one may appear to be more "dominant" than others. For example one dog may always jump out of the car before the other one. This is not dominance this is just eager behaviour and probably a badly trained dog!

At other times the so called dominant behaviour will swop and the other dog may hump the first dog (even if bitches) this is not dominant behaviour just excitement.

However if you watch them carefully you will see that their behaviour will change to each other in different circumstances so dogs certainly do not see it as dominance.

I agree that dogs need boundaries. Absolutely spot on . However these are not achieved by punishing the dog or being dominant over the dog. These boundaries can be explained to the dog in language they understand and in a way that benefits them - if that happens then the behaviour will be repeated.

An example is toilet training - old method hit puppy on the nose with a newspaper if he wees indoors. Pup learns "do a wee get hit on nose", so waits until the owner is out of the way or goes to wee out of sight behind the sofa or in another room. Gets hit on nose again and is more confused more worried and hides under the wardrobe and wees again.

Positive training method - dog is taken to place where it can wee - it wees and is given a treat, a game and has a happy owner. Wees indoors no reaction. Wees outside gets a treat and has a happy owner will continue to wee outside where a positive association is made.

A mother dog will move a puppy by the scruff of its neck but given the option of no hands and no clicker she hasn't got a lot of choice. We however have the choice to study how dogs do communicate and more importantly how they learn and can use methods that are proven, safe, easy and quick. Why use any others!

Positive training does not mean letting a dog do what it wants, quite the opposite it means showing a dog the correct behaviour and rewards it so the behaviour is repeated. The more positive behaviours a dog learns the less likely they are to give unacceptable behaviours - they have been taught how to behaviour in situations.

All level of dog sport agility, HTM, obedience has shown that Positive training is the way forward. Dogs are getting more skilled as the owners are realising what they can achieve with positive training. Look at all the HTM dogs there are now none of that could be achieved without positive dog training.

Some of my dogs can skip with me with a skipping rope how could that be achieved with dominant dog training - took a few minutes with a clicker and a bit of hotdog

Positive training all the way.