NILIF

[RedwingWinter]

We have been practising NILIF with our husky/mal cross for the last six months. Even after all this time, the cat is more likely to come when called than the dog.

I feel like it is damaging our relationship with the dog. He used to come to us for affection; now he doesn't because he knows we will ask him to do something first, and even if it's as simple as a 'touch' or 'watch me', he doesn't want to do it.

He is a well-mannered dog and rarely misbehaves, although he also is very stubborn and hates to do anything he's asked. The biggest improvement we've had in his behaviour is that before, if I asked him to sit, he would think about it for ten minutes first; now he sometimes only thinks about it for two minutes. (The exception is for a piece of a sausage, when he will sit almost instantly). I don't think this improvement is down to NILIF; it's because he's learnt that we will patiently wait until he sits and nothing else will happen until then.

Is it worth persisting with NILIF? I know the idea is that your dog still gets lots of affection, because you call him to you for it - but this doesn't work because he won't come when called. Have other people had this issue?

To be honest, I have never heard of NILIF, so can't comment on that.

We have a lot of GSD experience, and training them is very rewarding - the only "reward" they want is your approval.

We also have a Husky cross. We have given up training her becuase it just doesn't work! She will only do something if there is something in it for her. So, she will sit if she knows I have a treat in my hand, if she knows my hand is empty she will continue to do whatever she wants. We cannot even get her to come in from the garden when we want to - Dentastix usually work but not always. But, she will almost always come for a cuddle or a game when asked.

I'm not a trainer or anything, but I would say that doing something that has affected your relationship with him is not the right way to go. If any of my dogs want a cuddle they tend to get one most of the time. They all know the Go Away command though and usually respect that. The Husky does look at you with huge sad eyes though as if you have really hurt her feelings.

I've only had a brief google of this whole NILIF thing but I'm getting the distinct impression that it simply will not be effective with husky type dogs.

All of the northern spitzy type breeds are stubborn and hate to do anything they're specifically asked to, huskies most of all, it's just the way they are. Most are not motivated enough by food or toys to be bribed into doing things either. Oh sure, they'll sit for a sausage but only when it suits them - they get bored, they switch off, they bugger off and please themselves.

Also the simple fact that the dog has stopped coming to you for affection would be enough for me to pull the plug on it as a method. :(

Have a read of The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson if you're interested in dog behaviour and psychology.

If you'd wanted an obedient dog, you wouldn't have got a Husky or a Mal, let alone a cross of the two!

I have a spitz X (one that is crossed with a working breed that is a little more trainable, although wilful and headstrong in their own right) but as far as obedience training goes, he's 100% bastard spitz in his attitude. He is super intelligent and hugely food motivated so training is a doddle as he picks up things really quickly but he'll only respond to a command if he feels like it (and he rarely feels like it). He prefers to use his mega intelligence for evil rather than good. He mentally exhausts us because we always have to be second guessing him to try and keep a few steps ahead.

I have another dog (completely different breed) who is unquestioninly obedient and is happy to do anything that's asked of her for nothing more than a bit of fuss or a game of fetch. Same training methods used with both dogs but their breed traits mean the results are markedly different.

If you feel that NILIF is damaging your relationship with your dog, then quit it. There is nothing to be gained by continuing with it and it may do more harm than good in the long run.

Meant to say...I second the recommendation for Jean Donaldson's 'The Culture Clash'. Excellent book and well written so as to be an easy read even for those who aren't dog psychology afficionados.

I think you have answered your own question . I am not a huge fan of NILIF however on occasions it can help a few pushy teenage dogs for a short period. Although I feel that you may have gone off target a bit if the reward you are giving your dog is not what he wants to do the command. NILIF will only work if the rewards are worth working for.

But get a clicker! Your dog will work for that I promise.

IfYouseeKay I am going to be bold and disagree with you. Any dog can be odedient if you find the right way to communicate and it is worth the dog doing so. I agree that it can be harder to find the trigger for some though!

I had a fantastic holiday in the Arctic Circle dogsledding with huskies. It was one of the best experiences of my life - fantastic dogs.

Have you considered exploiting your dogs natural instinct bike joring is almost as much fun but without the snow. You will find that it will be easier to train your dog if he has an avenue for his natural abilities.

Clickers however are fantastic with huskies and they learn quickly.

Toboldlygo, I only tried NILIF in the first place because people with huskies told me it was good for huskies!! It did seem to have worked for theirs.

IfyouseeKay, you're right, if I wanted a dog that would do anything I asked, I would have got a different dog. I love that he is so independent. And I can't say I blame him for not wanting to do something just because he is told - I am the same!

Minimu, I might try a clicker. The point of it would be simply for teaching him tricks though. I managed to teach him to shake paw in exchange for a treat, but it took a long time; it would probably have been faster with a clicker. He has learnt things best when there has been no obvious motivation involved - 'on by' and 'gee over' and so on he has just picked up when out on walks for nothing more than a 'good boy'. If I try and get him to do things for treats, he will have a look and sniff and see if he thinks the treat is worth it, and then usually goes back to lounging around.

He loves to run and matches my pace quite nicely (ie he doesn't mind running slowly!). I would love to try dog-sledding. We actually have snow here today (turning to rain though).

NILIF is hereby out the window. Now where's my dog, I want to give him a cuddle ...

Forgot to say, The Culture Clash is one of those books I have been meaning to read for ages, so I will actually get around to it! Thanks for the suggestion.

MrsZoidberg, I know what you mean about those big husky eyes! Mine doesn't always want to come in from the garden either, but he looks to see how serious I am and if I mean it then he does come.

I have a friend with a german shepherd of about the same age as my husky cross. We walk our dogs together most days and he laughs at me for having a husky that I can't let off lead. But he loves my dog too so he understands. It is amazing how different they are though.

Minimum, my comment about obedience was tongue in cheek. And my dog is not Husky or Mal X so that type of exercise is of no interest to him. Quite apart from the fact that he's severely arthritic and wouldn't be able even if his physical construction allowed for distance running (it doesn't). This would probably make more sense if I could tell you what crossbreed he is but that would out me completely.

However much he infuriates me at times, i am more than happy that hes well adjusted and well mannered (he had NO socialisation as a pup in his previous home and came to us having never seen a collar or lead) However, if you think you can succeed in achieving 100% response rate from him where others have failed you are more than welcome to try

Oops, sorry! Misread your post...realise now you were suggesting biking with OPs husky x!

But the challenge to take on my little darling stands

IfYouSeeKay - I am always up for a challenge

My only experience with huskies in real life is that there was one in our dog training class. But he is not in our class any longer as he and his owner passed their Kennel Club silver obedience award a few weeks ago and have moved up to the gold class!

So some must be trainable! In fact this woman has two huskies, and both passed their silver award on the same night.

Oh they are perfectly trainable, I cannot stand some husky owners who don't instill basic manners in their dog (loose lead walking when appropriate, not jumping up at people, not pulling and lunging at passing dogs wanting to play) because they claim it's just the way they are and they're bred to pull, etc. They are bred to pull, fair enough, but they're still domestic dogs same as any other. Training them is more difficult, I'll admit, they're hard to motivate and it all has to be done on their terms, but not impossible.

The only thing I won't budge on is that it's impossible to teach them a 100% recall.

I would disagree with that it is impossible to teach them a 100% recall. It is very difficult for the average dog owner to teach them but it really is not impossible in the hands of an experienced dog owner.

loads more examples of husky recalls on you tube even with distractions.

All I have learnt in dog behaviour is never say never they will always surprise you. If your dog is not doing what you want them to always look at the training method, communication method with the dog, the reward and motivation for the dog. It is always the trainers fault.

Every single husky breed club and welfare organisation in the world recommends that they not be let off the lead in an unenclosed area. These are people who work with and handle hundreds of huskies in their lifetime.

I am desperately trying to recall the name of the person (a big name guy in husky breeding and racing in the US) who, when asked if he thought they were to be trusted off lead, replied that he'd had something in the order of 400 dogs in his career and only had one, in all that time, that he would have trusted.

Both of mine have a 99% recall - at least as good as most of the dogs we see off lead around here, and better than a good portion who are allowed off lead. I am not willing to take the chance on the 1%. I could post a hundred videos of mine recalling, doing extended heeling patterns, completing clear rounds of agility - doesn't mean a jot when they get that 'call' and just go.

SHWA have a good explanation here.

I am usually of the opinion, as I said above, that huskies are dogs are dogs and should do anything a normal dog can do. This is the one single difference and I know this from experience.

I agree with toboldlygo on the off-leash thing. On the other hand huskies that are used as actors have to be off-leash, so there must be some exceptions. Mine will never be off-leash though.

I think he would make a great therapy dog as he is so friendly and gentle with people, and loves meeting new people. He is probably not that far off but I do need to train him a bit better first.

What toboldlygo said.

I've heard so many stories about Huskies who had 100 percent recall - UNTIL xyz happened.

If Husky clubs etc all say it's a bad idea to let them offlead (unless it's in an enclosed space) then that's good enough for me. They'd hardly say that unless they had good reason, would they?