GS started growling at our 8 month old.

[BeanInMyBelly]

Hi all, I'll try to keep this short. Basically, we have a rescue german shepherd who has always had lots of nervous aggression - she has always been fine with us but is unpredictable when meeting new people or when walking past dogs. We have always had to keep children away from her because when they get up close she growls at them.
We have an 8 month old daughter, and until a few days ago Jess (the dog) was fine with our DD, basically ignoring her or sniffing then walking away. The change has been our DD starting to crawl... she often sees the dog lying on her bed and crawls up to her, we never leave them alone and always take DD away, but Jess has started growling pretty much any time DD even looks like shes going to crawl to her. Also shes growling if we are 'play crawling' with DD on the floor - am assuming this is jealousy? Am really starting to worry about it now, I'd never forgive myself if Jess ever did anything. I dont think I could bring myself to put her in a rehoming center, as she has such an unpredictable temperment i really can't see anyone willing to take her on. Its at the stage where my OH has started going on about having her put down, due to the risk to DD, the fact that she wouldn't be rehomed, and a serious skin disease she has that causes her to bite and scratch herself until she bleeds.

Any advice would be most appreciated. Thanks.

Can you use a baby gate to make sure that the dog and your DD are kept apart?

We have done that, but the thing is, the dog is used to being part of the family and sitting with us, and i guess i'm worried that by shutting her out when DD is on the floor, we are encouraging the jealousy and the 'issue' she has?? Does that make sense?
Also, DD loves to go and stand up at the babygate, using it as support, and when we've shut the dog out, as soon as DD goes up to the gate, Jess comes up to the other side and starts growling.

ThunderboltKid - we grab her now as soon as she heads over in that direction, but we try to do it without 'fuss' so as not to encourage her to go straight back over, or to encourage Jess to see it as a bad thing happening.
Thanks guys for the posts so far.

i think you have to ensure that the dog is left in peace when led in her bed. how you do this depends on your home set up. imo it is critical you find a way for dog to lie in her bed without being disturbed straightaway.

as for further advice could you give us some more background? how old is dog and how long has she lived with you? what skin condition? if its painful then could be why dog is growling when approached? did you rehome via rescue? if so then you can contact them for advice. some rescues will have a behaviourist you can contact, for free, for the rest of the dog's life

I have no gsd experience, but our last dog (lab x collie) also didn't like it when our eldest baby started crawling. Lots of growling :(

It did calm down in time. I think making sure the dog has a safe place like chick says is really important. Before the crawling thing started our dog had a bed but didn't really chose it, preferring cushions on the floor etc. She soon learnt that if she didn't want to be disturbed she could go to her bed and be safe :)

If you're worried about the jealousy thing, can you have special doggy fuss time when your daughter is napping or in bed in the evening? (I am aware that sounds a but daft!)

Thanks Chickchick - we have tried putting the dog bed in the hallway so Jess can get out of the way if she wants, but the thing is, even though she will growl she always comes and plants herself nearby - she's done it with other children that come round, just constantly goes over to them, with hackles up, and then growls when the child gets any closer etc!
As for background, we got her from a family, they had never taken her for a walk before, and when we went round she was being climbed on by 3 kids, the youngest being about 3 years old. She has always had problems with strangers and other dogs, but through training a few years ago we have managed this now. She is still a nightmare when people turn up, but if she knows them she shuts up straight away, and with new people she just is wary for about half an hour then seems to be ok.
She is about 7 years old, we have had her for 3 years. She knows basic commands, she isn't allowed upstairs, near the table and dinner time, or on the sofas etc.The skin condition is a form a dermatitis, causing her to constantly bite and itch, to the extent where she will bite until the fur is gone and shes pouring with blood. We barely manage this with a rotation of prescribed shampoos, medication, steroid injections, and most recently the BARF diet, but nothing seems to get on top of it, we just kind of ease it a bit. She seems to get worse and worse with it over the years - she constantly wears a victorian collar to stop her bitting, and we feel like all we do is shout at her to get her to stop bitting or scratching.
I have called a behaviourist in the area, waiting for them to call back and arrange to come for a home visit. We have spent so much money on her already, with the vet bills every month and the training from before, that it turns into a row between me and the OH about what to do.

I love dogs but I would always put my children first. You say your GS has an unpredictable temperament and is growling at your baby. Sorry, but you need to rehome. The dog WILL be okay, I promise...they do settle in new homes and one will be found where there are no children. In the meantime, continue NEVER allowing baby and dog to be together unsupervised. Never, ever, ever.

Just don't take a chance with your daughter's well being, especially when you are fully aware of the risk - if you choose to take the risk anyway then not only might your daughter be injured but you would, as you say, never forgive yourself.

You have done your best for this dog, given it a big chance and made it no doubt easier for her now to find a new home. Do it. Perhaps you even know someone who might take her if you think through your doggy friends and relatives?

In case people accuse me of being a dog hater, I would point out that I have had a large, soppy dog since the DC were toddlers and they have all been fine but we chose a gentle breed, from a family home breeder and got him AFTER the DC were born and brought him up with no illusions other than that they were an important part of the family. If at any time I had thought he was a risk, he would have gone. Bless him, his is now 12 and has never growled at a human being in his life. That's the kind of dog you can have safely.

From the history it sounds like the dog is weary of kids in general after bing treated as a climbing frame. I would re home, there are people out there willing to take dogs like this, ie without children etc. I highly recommend german shepard dog rescue website. They are lovely people and there is the opportunity to act as a foster family until a home is found if you aren't happy with her going into a kennel. Really worth a conversation with them. (speakingfrom experience we have just re homed our GSD. )

gameoldbird I thoroughly refute the suggestion that one breed is better than another or that a GSD - and I have 2 currently, not my first GSDs, and have fostered them too, plus I work with several - is any less a "gentle breed" than any other.

I also resent the idea that an assessed, well matched rescue dog is any greater risk to a family or DC than a pup (which as it grows could turn into any type of dog, there are no guarantees, with an older dog character is established) - particularly from a "family home breeder" (which generally means BACKYARD breeder IMHO). I say that as a rescuer with some considerable experience.

Now I've said that I'll leave it to others to make suggestions wrt training, that's not my area.

I will say this to Bean, in response to her DH's comments: ". Its at the stage where my OH has started going on about having her put down, due to the risk to DD, the fact that she wouldn't be rehomed, and a serious skin disease she has that causes her to bite and scratch herself until she bleeds."

I work with rescues which would not dream of killing or suggesting that YOU kill your dog, even if you were unable to resolve your concerns and even if she wasn't able to be rehomed (which I doubt very much to be accurate anyway, in fact I'd bet my last dollar that it's not).

I ONLY work with no kill rescues and those which will offer dogs sanctuary for life if they need it. Should YOU need it - though I don't for one moment think you will if the situation wrt your dog and DC is properly managed (think dog is warning, IMHO, btw, and not jealous, just concerned) - then I will do my utmost to find your dog that help... PLEASE don't even consider killing her and PLEASE NEVER, EVER rehome privately (see recent other threads on here for reasons why not) but intead approach reputable rescue.

NoGoodAtHousework, there is one of the United Kingdom's GSD rescues which I and any other responsible person involved in rescue would not recommend you touched with a bargepole.

This particular one homes unneutered/unspayed/unvaccinated dogs, rehomes to those who have never even met the dog and rehomes straight from the owner to the new home without assessment.

And that's only what's publicly known about them! There is some behind the scenes stuff that would make you cry and spit, so please, respectfully, be VERY careful of which GSD rescue (in the United Kingdom , as opposed to a local one such as the FANTASTIC Lancashire GSD Rescue and similar local, independent Shep rescues, IYSWIM ).

Gah!

"so please, respectfully, be VERY careful of which GSD rescue.... YOU RECOMMEND", that should read.

Ok you feel that you have an impossible situation here BUT there are several solutions without having to resort to killing your pet or putting it up to rehomed.

1. Speak to a qualified behaviourist. (Yes it will cost money but it could save a dogs life). You need to know what you are dealing with and if you can deal with it in your home. I am sure you can if you put in the time stay calm and don't panic at the situation. I see that you have contacted one do make sure they are a member of either APDT or APDC link here

1. Your dog would rather be shut away from the family at times than be put to sleep. I guess an 8 month old is still having naps etc so the dog can have his time then. The dog can share time with you both when you go out for walks with baby and dog. When the baby is about and crawling the dog can be shut in another room with a lovely toy or kong etc. Or just be allowed to chill out quietly on his own

1. I would also go back to the vet and demand specialist advice on the skin condition - the dog really does need to feel more comfortable to be able to relax.

I agree with notmeagain there are many things that can be done to help your dog. PTS really shouldnt be an option.

Growling can mean many things - I know a dog who does it when he is happy, it is funny to watch him, but because it is a lab nobody thinks twice. However, if my GSD did that it would be construed as 'aggression'

I think your dog is warning, but you really need a proper behaviourist involved. They willhelp and guide you to ensure the dog and your family are happy and safe together.

If you DO decide to rehome, could you please PLEASE contact me via PM and I will put you in touch with no kill rescues and in particular breed specific no kill rescue.

Thankyou for all the responses, lots of helpful advice. I could never bring myself to put an animal down unless a specialist and a vet said it would be for the best, to be honest ibdont think my oh would either, think he's just worrying about the situation. The behaviourist is coming Thursday, so we will see what she says.
With regards to dogsbestfriend, could you pm me the name of the one you are talking about, because if its the one I'm thinking of I was looking at it as a option for down the line if it came to it, and if it did have to happen I'd be heartbroken if I didn't pick the best rescue center to help me find her a forever home. I will be devastated if I have to rehome her, so fingers crossed we can sort it out. Thanks again everyone, and any more advice.or stories most welcome.

Jaxteller, thank you I will bear you on mind if it comes to that, fingers crossed it doesn't.

I'd second what has been said about separating the dog, even if it means it's missing out.

We have a similar temperament dog to yours. We took him on prior to DCs. He was said by behavioralist to have nervous aggression.

When our DS was born, our dog was disinterested. As he started crawling the dog started growling. We put a stairgate across the utility room and our two dogs stayed behind it (let out during naps, and when baby in highchair, and for walks etc). The dogs didn't seem to mind the reduced freedom, and once they were used to the stairgate, and realised it meant that the baby couldn't get to him, this dog barely looked up when the baby pulled himself up on the bars. I think the dog was grateful for a 'safe' place.

Fast forward 3 years, and the dog adores my son. He will still growl if he feels uncomfortable (if DS approaches him in a 'aggressive' (for a dog) way, or gets too enthusiastic with his stroking) but spends most the day mooching after my DS trying to get him to scratch his chest. He lies as close as possible to my son when he is playing lego! I still would never leave them alone unsupervised (as with any dog) but they have a very close relationship now and I'm quite happy letting my son handle the dog if I am pottering around.

From your description of your dog in her previous home having kids clambouring all over her, it sounds though she is actually used to and very tolerant of older kids. So it might just be the adjustment to your baby going from being a small insignificant squawky thing to a potential threat (I think I recall that a crawling baby is meant to look quite intimidating to a dog? - this might be why she growls when all the family get on the floor and crawl too!). It's possible that like my dog, with time, she will get used to your daughter, and if you teach your daughter to handle her respectfully, may actually grow to be good friends.

I was thinking about what we did when my 2 DC were babies/toddlers.

Our dogs were not allowed in the lounge until evening when the children were in bed. They obviously saw the children during the day and spent time with us as a family but the dogs were in the kitchen/dining room/hall.

Dogs dont have to be with you all over the house.

I specifically joined Mumsnet to reply to this thread, but my posts kept disappearing. I've just posted on the CDRM thread & post is there, so fingers crossed this time for my reply here.
I only wanted to say that I have had GSD's for the last 13years as well as 3 children and never ever once have any of them growled at my children. They have always been patient, extremely tolerant & gentle with my children.
I feel that as your daughter starts to get more mobile, starts opening doors, climbing, making quick movements & noises - just as a child should behave, you are really going to struggle to keep her safe. The dog is growling to warn your daughter off, & of course naturally your daughter doesn't understand this. Yes, you could go down the behaviourist route, but if you consider the cost of this & that there would be no guarantee at the end of it all, you have to ask yourself is it really worth it.
GSDs as far as I'm concerned are THE best dog in the world, providing they are correctly bred, socialised, trained & exercised. On the other hand if just one of these things are even slightly out, they can be your worst nightmare.
They are a serious dog, for an experienced owner. I would just like to add that I have only ever had the Working/Police lines & have found them all (so far anyway) to be loyal, obedient & excellent family pets.

Chrissie as this is your first post i shall be gentle ;) and it is obvious from you post the you love and understand the breed very much, BUT OF COURSE ITS BLOODY WORTH IT!! i dont see that the OP actually has any other choice after all only a total twat would rehome a dog without actually exploring EVERY avenue!.

Sorry but have to disagree. There are very few things that would ever make me consider rehoming one of my dogs & growling at one of my children would be one of them.
Even without the growling, Bean has described Jess as unpredictable with other dogs & strangers, what would happen a few months down the line if they were out & the baby was between Jess & say a stranger or a dog?
Also Bean describes Jess growling when she's on her bed at the baby. She could very well be resource guarding, which could extend to anything that the dog decides is "hers".
It sounds as if the dog has had bad experiences of children in the past, the growling needs to be taken very seriously. I personally would not have a dog like this anywhere near a baby approaching toddlerhood.

Forgot to say that it is important that Jess be kept away from the baby until a decision has been reached about what to do with her, but it wouldn't be a good long term/permanent solution to the problem. While some breeds, like say a Labrador, would just accept being put in another room, a GSD would just resent the "source", in this case the baby, even more, which in turn would exacerbate her existing behaviour towards the baby.

I think asking a behaviourist to help is a good idea. We have a JRT x collie (who we have had since a puppy) who started growling at DD when she became mobile. Typically when the behaviourist came around dog was on her best behaviour and didn't pay DD the slightest bit of notice!

The behaviourist gave some really good advice about how to calm dog down and just make her generally happier (completely tire her out with tasks specific to the breed basically) and that is now what we do. We keep DD and dog seperate with stair gates all over the house but I will daily do some training with dog whilst DD is in my arms and there are always lots of treats involved. As DD gets older (she is only 17 mths) we will involve her more with training and interacting with dog, but ALWAYS closely supervised.

All of this has really helped dogs interaction with other dogs when out and about as well. When waslking with the pushchair she used to growl at other dogs but now she is happy and playful again.

It's hard work but totally worth it. I think after having dog for a few years me and DH lost track of how much you need to put into interacting with her - its not enough to just have a quick walk and a quick fuss. She is now perfectly happy on her bed in one room whilst we play with DD in another room.

Don't lost sight of all of the good points of your dog - there are some - and try working on those and hopefully you'll find a way of living together where you're all happy.