Novice dog buyer in need of advice

[Yourefired]

Hello, on Sunday morning we are viewing a litter of Labrador puppies with a view to buying. They will be 7 weeks old when we view.

I have never bought/had a dog before but voluntary redundancy and pleading from children and husband means I now have the time to devote to this.

Talking to friends they have told me to do the following at the viewing. 1. Make sure we see the parents, especially the mother, and see how she behaves and interacts with the pups. 2. Ask for certification from KC, and for hips and eyes (problem with this is I really don't know what to look for they seem to have scores but what score should I be looking for?). 3. Check that there is no evidence that this is a puppy farm, but what exactly does that look like? 4. Choose a male as they are easier around children (ours are 10 and 5). Is there anything else I should be doing/asking?

We have been quoted £450 for the puppy, this looks to be the going rate (I'm in the SE), am I right in thinking this?

Sorry nearly there just two more questions...

1. Three friends say get a cage for puppy as makes them feel secure and easier for owner. One friend and the breeder tell me not to. Advice please.

1. Have been told by various people that pups can leave mother at 7,8 and 9 weeks. Which is right.

Thanks in advance.

"Re rescue dog, was told they are for more experienced dog owners, as may have had a difficult past"

It depends on the dog, obviously some rescue dogs will need experienced homes, and maybe no-children homes. I think often though it's the other way round, a well-trained adult rescue dog can be very easy to take on, compared with training a puppy and handling a difficult adolescent! Our boy came to us at 5 years old, had all his basic training, had been socialised with other dogs, was accustomed to living in a family home, being around children etc.

And rescues do sometimes have puppies as well :)

Sorry I don't have experience of buying from a breeder so can't say much about that, and I realise all this may be useless to you if you do end up getting one of those Lab puppies, or if you've decided that rescue is not for you. But I always like to mention rescue, just in case, so many lovely dogs needing homes!

YoureFired, I'm involved in rescue so will always advocate that over buying.

Perhaps I might be able to help with some pointers in what to look for in a reputable rescue and in a reputable breeder, and what to avoid.

Rescue's pretty easy. You should only deal with one which will:

1. Homecheck you. This is for your benefit as much as the dog or pup's. We don't want you to end up bringing your dog back because he isn't suited to your home and lifestyle or having to explain to your children that Rover got run over because he got through the gap in your fence.
2. Assess every dog thoroughly.
3. Neuter or spay before rehoming or, if the dog is too young, ensure that you are under contract to organise it ASAP and which will check up to ensure that you have done so.
4. Microchip, vaccinate, vet check, worm and flea treat every dog.
5. Insist upon meeting all the members of the household and satisfying themselves that all adults are up for owning a dog.
6. Meets any other dog owned by the potential adopter.
7. Ensures that you sign a contract which states that the dog will be returned to rescue if ever you can't keep him, no matter how many years in the future that might be.

Expect rescue to meet you more than once, to grill you and to take seriously any questions or concerns and to guarantee you support for the whole of your dog's life.

A good breeder? They're hard to find.

Seek one who:

1. Is a member of a recognised, reputable breed club.
2. Only breeds one type of dog.
3. Never advertises in the free ads, epupz, Gumtree, Preloved, shop windows, local press etc but instead who has a list of potential owners and a reserve list before mating.
4. Offers lifetime support.
5. Will take the dog back at any time in his life if you can't keep him. I get requests from far too many vets asking me to find rescue for dogs who the owner can neither keep nor find rescue for themselves and who have therefore taken the dog in to be put to sleep (PTS). Imagine how many die because the vets don't call on people like me, sadly I can tell you for a fact that far too many vets will PTS such a dog.
6. Has chosen a stud dog for his suitability wrt health, size, temperament, proven background and proven health checks regardless of cost or distance and not just a local dog (always view those who boast that they bred with a local dog with great suspicion).
7. Who has carried out all necessary health checks on both parents and has the original paperwork to prove it.
8. Who will question you to within an inch of your life on your family, home, knowledge of the breed, will want to know about you insuring the dog, will want to discuss and insist on you neutering the dog, will want to meet you, DH and the DC and who will be able to answer all your questions and talk genetics until you nod off in boredom. If they don't have the answers, if they don't know about the genetics of good breeding, then they don't care and you could well be buying a vet bill on legs which they won't give a stuff about once they've cashed your cheque.
9. Will never breed a bitch who is under 2, who is over 5 at most or breed a bitch within 12 months of having a previous litter.

Ask the breeder:

1. If they show or work their dogs - if not, why not.
2. To see all paperwork as originals and take a look carefully, refer to breed rescue or breed club for assurances on the pedigree. If in doubt, take paperwork or copies, walk away and say you'll think it over and get advice from a reputable breed club secretariate/coordinator first.
3. If they intend to keep a pup - if not why not.
4. Why they bred their bitch. A reputable breeder will breed rarely, maybe only once every 3, 4 or 5 years, to improve breed lines and generally to keep a dog to show.
5. If they breed any other breeds or any other of the breed they are selling (see above) and if so how many adult dogs and pups they have.
6. If they are registered, licensed breeders (see below).
7. If all their pups and dogs are KC reg/accredited. This is not necessarily the sign of a reputable breeder - 90% of puppy farmed dogs are KC reg, but it gives some assurances. A non KC reg dog is definitely unlikely to have had all the necessary health checks/have parents and grandparents who have.
8. If a breeder has no pups available they should be able to refer you to checkable members of a recognised breed club who have or might have. The good ones know each other, they talk (though they may not always get on!!!). Does your chosen breeder know any others? What are their names, where are they? ASK! A good breeder will be able to tell you of others, word gets around, good and bad, in these circles as it does in rescue. Take a pen and notepad and have ready a list of questions and note the breeder's replies to questions such as these. If in doubt/you mishear, don't be afraid to ask them to repeat that or to spell a name or address. A good breeder will be comforted to hear it.

Check them out:

1. A breeder must be licensed with the local council if they or someone in their family, even if at a different address breed from more than 4 bitches. They must also comply with various laws regarding the age of bitches before they have their first litter, the gap between litters - illegal to breed a bitch within 12 months of the last litter, for example - and be inspected by the council. The council will have records on this available, some have lists of licensed breeders on their websites, some will know of dodgy ones, always call them to see what you can find out, even if the breeder is not registered.
2. Have a word with their local independent rescues - they may know of the breeder and be able to give you a heads up.
3. Can you see the mum? Is this the last pup? If so, be wary, it's common nowdays for puppy farmers to use family homes as fronts for their businesses in return for money and having no siblings to your pup available may indicate this, although of course it is perfectly possible for such a "fake breeder's home" to have the whole litter and mum there.
4. If you'd like me to do a search on the breeder and ask in confidence around my friends and acquaintances in rescue and animal welfare who, like me, go around identifying and reporting puppy farmers and illegal breeders, please pm me in confidence the breeders name, phone numbers and email address.
5. Ask who their vet is and call the vet before making any promises or parting with any money. Vets have a code of confidentiality they must follow but will at least be able to tell you if the breeder is not one of their clients. Get a sympathetic, savvy one and they may be willing to tell you more. If they do,, just please don't drop them in it by making it public, cos they really shouldn't!
6. Ask national and local breed clubs and breed rescues if they know anything of the breeder.

NEVER:

1. Pay any money up front before seeing the pups in the breeders home and doing those checks or deal with any breeder which asks you to or offers you the chance to pay a deposit before meeting you. After all, would you leave your child with a childminder before you interviewed them in their home? Of course not, because you care about the welfare of that young life and want to know who you are entrusting it to.
2. Feel pushed into making a decision/paying up - the breeder should have more homes waiting than pups and not appear anxious to get rid or to take your cash.
3. Feel anything less than being under scrutiny by them... again, they should ask you loads of questions because they care.
4. Take that the dog is in a family home at face value. As I said, puppy farmers are smart these days, many will present a very acceptable image.
5. Pay less than the going rate - ask yourself why these pups are cheaper than those being sold via breed clubs/breed club recommendation. Contact the breed club and ask what you SHOULD expect to pay or contact some of the breeders on their lists and ask them.

If in doubt, walk out. Equally, if in doubt, please feel free to pm me the details - I have contacts who know of many dodgy breeders and good ones too and who may be able to advise. For some it's their lifes work, one in particular is in her 80s and what she doesn't know about dodgy breeders or those who carry out the wicked trade ain't worth knowing!

And after all that, may I say this.

I don't like giving the advice I have just given on breeders. Not just because it comes as no pleasure to face the fact that there are far more bad ones out there than good and that puppy farming and backyard breeding* is still as rife as ever it was but because I would far rather you rescued. I spend much of my life finding rescue places for dogs who would otherwise die for want of homes owing to the overpopulation caused by bad breeders and far too much of my life too breaking my heart knowing that each year for thousands and thousands of unwanted healthy dogs the only way out of the pound or vets is in a black bin liner.

But if you are insistant on buying a pup I would rather you did so from a reputable breeder, giving you the best chance of buying a healthy, sound companion for life therefore helping to prevent sales from backyard breeders and puppy farmers and so helping to prevent yet more dogs dying unnecessarily or ending up unwanted and unloved except by those of us in rescue.

A good rescue, like the type described above, will be your friends for life as much as a dog or pup from one.... and yes, you can find puppies in rescue, I can help with that if you'd like me to. And yes, many will rehome to those with children too, especially the smaller independent ones who are less likely to have blanket policies.

Can I add too that although Labs are generally nice dogs there is no such thing as a "good breed with kids" - the exception being perhaps the Staffordshire Bull Terrier which is the only breed which the Kennel Club state is a recommended family dog. I would argue with even that - there are good and bad dogs in every breed. You wouldn't want to have my Labrador with your DC, he's not fond of them, only likes our own, but you'd find my younger German Shepherd an absolute joy and love him to pieces because he loves everyone.

My advice? Go to a reputable rescue, put yourself in their hands, tell them all about you, your lifestyle, your home, your children and let them do what they are expert at... matching the right dog to you, not the breed. This poster is the woman who went in search of a small collie cross girl of about 4 to 6 years old, having lost her similar little companion to cancer and who couldn't find one who was suitable but instead did find the right dog... a bloody great 9 year old, male, long haired white German Shepherd Dog, my introduction to the breed as an owner and the very best dog in the world any woman, any mother, any family could have asked for. Shane passed away 5 years ago, I have 3 dogs now and I love them to pieces, I've fostered several since too... but none of them will ever, nor will any future dog, be quite as perfect as the dog I wasn't looking for and who I would never have considered owning until I met him and realised what we could offer each other.

HTH... I'm knackered now, off to find a glass of wine! :o

No I'm really glad for fresh point of view on rescue dogs. My preconception was that they are difficult, which was confirmed by a well meaning friend, who thinking about it has only had one dog that she bought from a breeder. Good to hear positive stories. The two things that I am finding very appealing about rescue approach is that an expert will match us and the dog, and that I would get a free and candid home vetting which should wake me up to anything I've not considered. Reminds me of invaluable help from community midwife when I brought first baby home and needed hand holding. I have no problem with not getting a puppy. In fact think given my lack of experience would arguably be more sensible. My priority is the children's safety, which hinges on it being the right dog for us. Need to sleep on this, and discuss with DH tomorrow. Will view puppies on Sunday as already booked in but am proceeding with caution. Thank you all so much (ps I really like Wispa on the many tears website).

Dogsbestfriend thank you and enjoy your wine.

'3. Never advertises in the free ads, epupz, Gumtree, Preloved, shop windows, local press etc but instead who has a list of potential owners and a reserve list before mating. '

I'd add Facebook to that. Way too many going on there right now. And lots are free to a good home. Makes me very

Wispa looks lovely :)

A lot of rescue dogs, particularly nowdays in the light of house repossessions, divorce on the increase etc come from family homes where the owner has bought from one of the type of breeders I've mentioned above and who therefore won't take the dog back if needed to. So they already have some background.

However, people dumping their dogs onto us sometimes lie in their desperation to get rid and, cynically but thankfully, unwillingness to pay the £100 plus cost of having the dog PTS. This is why all decent rescues will thoroughly assess their dogs regardless of where they have come from, some using foster homes to achieve that.

The same care is taken by a reputable rescue in assessing ex pound strays and so don't let that a dog may have no history put you off. In my experience, because the public sadly still largely believes rescue dogs to be a bad bet and ex pound dogs in rescue the worst of the lot, dogs which have been taken from pounds tend to linger in rescue in hope of a home for far longer than dogs from family homes which gives us all the more time to assess them.

Put it this way... I am a volunteer for a rescue as well as a network rescuer and fosterer. My children come with me and have done so for about 4 or 5 years now. This is a small independent rescue so we are not bound by the elf n safety hoo-ha of the big ones and we interact with the vast majority of the dogs there. There is only ONE out of the 70 there I and the rescue owners would not allow the DC to interact with and he's a funny bugger, the only one out of the 70 that I can't get near either, he only likes the man who owns the rescue though he will tolerate the owner's lady DP if he must. This rescue has a large number of ex pound dogs as well as ex family ones. Some, like were rejected by the bigger rescues - this dog's owners were told by a big rescue to take him to be PTS as they couldn't keep him owing to expecting twins and his habit of door guarding and alleged potential aggression. The child sitting in his chair, playing with him and his toys, who had walked in and out of his kennel without a murmer from him was about 12 when this was filmed.

We endeavour to rescue, rehabilitate, rehome... and the middle word is just as important as the other two. :)

I've thought about and researched this all evening, and my point of view has changed. Despite good intentions and talking to people with dogs about best way forward I am concluding that they are not experts, all be they lovely people who do their best by their dogs. I have moved from proceeding with caution to all alarm bells ringing with regard to breeder we are seeing on Sunday.

I found him on the Internet, I was influenced by the cheapness of the dogs, he didn't ask me any questions despite me clearly saying I was new to all this, he wants me to take the pup at 7 weeks...it's not looking good is it. We need to go back to square one and get some proper advice from a rescue centre. I had dismissed this approach for as you say the public (me) think they are a bad bet. Thanks for all your help, many tears seems like a sensible starting point, and dogs trust as well. I least I'll be getting advice from someone who cares about the dog and my children, rather than it being a for profit venture.

Thank you for listening. :) Even if you do choose a breeder in the end, please don't choose the one you spoke to. Wanting you to take the pup at 7 weeks and advertising over the internet is a sign of a very disreputable one indeed.

I hope that you find the perfect pooch and that you'll be very happy with him and her for a very long time. :)

OP, if you read any of my threads on this forum, that'll also give you an idea of how difficult life can be with a puppy - even a much wanted, 'perfect' puppy like ours - a golden retriever.

Based on my still very limited experience as a first time dog owner - we've only had Rollo 7 months and got him at 7 weeks old - these are my current conclusions: I should have waited to get a puppy until my twins were 14+ as they're still too young at 10 yrs old to manage the fact that Rollo takes masses of time away from them nowadays. It's very much like having a third child with very challenging needs (think lack of sleep, toileting issues, need for lots of daily attention, initial biting, barking, boundless energy including at 3am!). An older dog - even just 6 months old - would have been massively easier. The 'cute' puppy look belies the hours of input needed - which will obviously be down to the mum in the house (I'm a single mum running a f/t business too - but even with partner and being a SAHM, it'll be like having had another baby).

I waited 48 yrs to get my first dog and it's been a massive challenge (and that's an understatement!). I researched breeders, waited almost a yr for the right litter and ended up with the only pup in the litter (unbeknowns to us or the breeder) to have a hypersensitive stomach - think thousands of punds of vets bill accruing plus nights up in garden and kitcehn hoseing endless diarrhoea and weeping, knowing I also had to get the DCs up for school and then do a full day's work too!).

Now lots of others may say it's not nearly as bad as that and of course it also depends on your lifestyle and supports in place but it really is HARD WORK and your DCs would have to be able to accept that a third baby has arrived that needs you a lot of the time, whilst you feel torn between their needs and the puppy's needs.

Yesterday we spent time with a friend who has a 6 yr old lab. and that was a reminder of why we got a dog - he mooched quietly round the house, gazed into our eyes, didn't bark, didn't chew/steal and destroy everything in reach, didn't need toileting every hour, didn't even seem too fussed by not having a walk! There's a all the difference in the world between a puppy and a dog. If I had my time again, I'd have either got an older dog who could happily fit into our lives, or waited another few years to get a pup so my DCs could do loads of the lookign after and either take him for walks alone or be happily left alone whilst I walled the pup.

So do keep thinking about this. I'd never now recommend anyone with DCs under 14 getting a puppy. I know others may disagree but I've found it SO hard being pulled between my DCs needs and the puppy's needs and feeling guilty all of the time and of course never having time left over for my own needs!

i shouldnt have looked at the many tears page, :(
id love to adopt penny,

xx

Solo - you've described just why I got a nine year old dog! I expect though that teenagers would do even less than ten year olds. I doubt I would of been able to cajole a 14 year into wet weather gear and send him out with the dog as I currently doing with my 9 year old.

Penny will get a home gothicangel. Really pleased to see today that Kelly has gone. I would of loved to give her a home, but she wouldn't of suited our home.

Can i just add (although i see it may not be needed now :) ) taht if you go down the breeder rout any GOOD breeder will have "endorsed" their pups.

Putting endorsements on a puppy can take two forms- one for export and the other for breeding.

In terms of breeding endorsements it is done to prevent breeding of dogs who are not breed standard, un health tested or owners who are not experienced enough. The original breeder cannot physically stop you breeding your dog, however a dog who is endorsed cannot register puppies with the kc. Soall the puppies would be un kc reg and worth less, so it is a deterrant.

Only the breeder of the dog can lift the endorsements. Even when dogs have been sold to show homes, with the aim of breeding in mind (health testing and results withstanding!) they should be endorsed. It is a simple letter to the kc from the breeder. They should write up the terms of the endorsements for both parties to sign when you pick up your puppy. Something along the lines of

The new owner understands puppy is endorsed and progency will not be registered with the kc.

This endorsement will be lifted if:

The dog has been hip scored and is below 20 (for eg)

The dog had been elbow scored and is below 1

The dog has been optigen A tested clear, or a carrier and is being mated to a clear dog.

The dog has an up to date HC eyetest certificate.

I think you're right to run away from the breeder you've found on the web - from everything you've said he doesn't sound as though he's breeding labradors for any of the right reasons.

There are plenty of people who are absolutely dedicated to breeding labradors and are working hard to produce dogs with the right temperament, the necessary 'biddability' of a labrador along with continuing their devastating good looks . A good labrador is very hard to beat IMO - but then I do have 4 of them so am more than a little biased.

A good rescue will definitely work to pair you and your family up with the perfect dog - there are also breed specific rescues who have lovely dogs waiting for good homes. Of course, if you do decided to go for a lab pup there are many good breeders who are in it for the right reasons out there.

Quick update. We have cancelled the meeting with the breeder and applied to many tears. I feel a lot happier with the notion of getting a slightly older dog who has been assessed as safe around children, and also having someone who will advise me in my own home about what needs doing. The children went sulky for about 30 seconds when we said that we thought it better to not get a puppy, but after being told that an older dog can go on walks straight away and would be less likely to chew their things they were fine, and spent about 30 minutes looking at the dogs on the website. Thanks for all your help.

good news OP. its incredibly rewarding to give a dog a home. i've got 3 dogs, two of them i have had since they were puppies. never ever again do i want to do the puppy stage.

when we were fostering we adopted a 1-2yr old rescue dog. we took this route as we wanted a dog that had been assessed. you have no way of knowing for sure how a puppy will turn out. my jack russell (quiet, well socialised, lovely temperament, 100% recall even if she saw a small furry) was bitten by a labrador in a completely random unprovoked attack resulting in her needing 9 staples. so breed characteristics can be useful but only as a guideline only. i have two jack russells and they are very different despite having the same home since they were pups and both being trained by me

i think the children will love a dog past puppy stage. puppies only look cute for a day or two and then the impact hits. at least an older dog can be taken on long walks and you can do all the fun things straightaway. imo this is a lot better way for children to bond with a dog

Well done *yourefired, great choice! I didn't say it last time, but I would be super suspicious of a breeder, who has puppies left at 7 weeks old. Most good breeders have a good waiting list when they mate their bitch. Circs may change of course but that would be another red flag for me as a buyer.

MAny tears have a fantastic reputation!

Any news Yourefired?

Fantastic thread - and so timely for us. DC have just left home, we work from home and DH would like a dog. Thanks OP for starting this and everyone else for their input!

Just adding to the collective voice that rescue is always best.

My 4 yr old greyhound came in fully house trained- we have never had an accident in the house with her - fully lead trained and well socialised with other dogs. All we had to do was cat train her (very easy- the rescue picked out the the right doggy for us!) and let her know that doggies come in lots of shapes and sizes!

I think rescue people can just somehow judge what kind of dog you need- the lady who did the matching for us said that she could tell I was a 'rough and tumble' active type, so matched me with a lively doggy that would like long walks and lots of play!!