Rollo - has diarrhoea AGAIN...please help...in despair....

[Solo2]

I really need support/advice/answers ...This is the fourth bout. Its happened within 24 hrs of coming off a 3 week course of antibiotics. He's been totally fine on the vet's prescription diet for 3 weeks. He's eaten NOTHING else, except maybe the odd bit of moss/ grass/leaf/soil/cement - but only in tiny amounts. He doesn't go off lead out and about, only in his own lawned patch of garden. So it CAN'T be something he's eaten.

I CAN'T do this anymore. I'm facing another night awake in the garden, hosing it down and scooping up liquid poo....My DCs are NOT OK. DS2 is in tears - torn between worrying I'll rehome Rollo - yet desperately wanting him to go as he's destroying our lives. DS1 is withdrawn and, having been sick yesterday (migraine I think/ thought) but fine since, now has a swollen gland in his throat....I CAN'T cope with a sick child and a sick dog who both need me. I can't cope with the dog. I really can't.

I'm already having to neglect the DCs and have just made their supper 3 hrs later than normal, after a mad dash to the vets. Just finished the working week and have further work to do (run own business) and loads of domestic tasks and instead I'm in the garden scooping up and hosing foul smelling poo.

The vet has taken blood samples to look for what's going on in Rollo's pancreas. He's prescribed MORE of the same antibiotics but each tablet is double the previous dose and Rollo is refusing to eat them. I've resorted to putting some in cheese as the only way to get him to eat one, even though he's not had cheese for months now and it'll probably worsen the diarrhoea - though it looks like none of this is food related anyway....

So I need a short-term survival plan and a long term solution. How do I get through the next 48+hrs with no sleep at all and fulfil the DCS need and the dog's needs and the cats (obviously can't fulfill any of my own but it's the DCs I'm most worried about, especially DS2 who has Asperger's traits and who is getting incredibly distressed both by the situationand by observing my own distress?

Then...we'll get blood test results sometime next week. What might we expect? Any vets on here? I know you can't diagnose but what's it looking like from the history here...golden retriever puppy - now aged 6 months old - totally fine for first 4+ months...then gets 4 lots of increasingly severe diarrhoea, although poo samples all check out as fine and he acts healthy between bouts and is still putting on weight. EVERY time he comes off antibiotics and no matter what bland food he's been fine on, he gets further diarrhoea. I could chart the poo consistency from yesterday - his first full day antiobiotics free...started hard and 'sandy' nuggets...progressed to wetter but normal fully formed poo and ended up more and more liquid diarrhoea now....

If his condition relates to anatomical problems, can anything be done? Would he need an operation? Lifelong tablets? Will he always keep getting diarrhoea? What kind of life might he have is he can NEVER walk off lead (unless I suppose he can get used to a muzzle that prevents him eating anything when out and about). What kind of life can we as a family have with a dog like this? We can't enjoy him at all if he gets recurrent diarrhoea...

I'm trying to think rationally but feel despair really, which I know may sound OTT but my life circumstances (solo mum of twins, running own f/t business and with some current financial worries as business drops off) mean that the implications of recurrent sleepless nights on top of any I get anyway with DCs when they're ill, plus extra work during day time in garden hosing/ scooping etc...well it just feels impossible tonight...wimpy though that may sound.

Please help...

Thanks again. Am STILL waiting for blood test results before daring to try Rollo on anything at all. I've phoned the vets 6 times today, including at various times they told me to call back, as the results are apparently in. I was told they'd call me as the vet wanted to 'discuss the results with a colleague' but no one has called me back and now they're closed.

I am in a state of 'high anxiety' waiting to hear what they say and wondering why the main vet - a locally renowned, trusted, mature practitioner - feels the results merit discussion with a colleague. This must imply that they're inconclusive. These are blood tests related to Rollo's pancreas. Can anyone tell me what I might expect to hear? If results aren't straight forward, does that mean that maybe nothing can be done about Rollo's diarrhoea? Does it mean the vet has no idea what the results indicate?

I am literally dreading Saturday, when Rollo comes off antibiotics again, as it'll be yet more sleepless nights and being unable to go out at all, all day. I have a week off work with the DCs next week and we were going to do various social things but obviously I can't go out at all if Rollo has severe diarrhoea again. I suspect that the vet will refuse to put him on further antibiotics, as he's on his 4th course I think and these are double strength dose.

As predicted, he's totally fine whilst on them and I'm absolutely SURE he'll get severe diarrhoea within 24 hrs of coming off them. It's actually 5 bouts he's had now and it's always the same pattern.

Have had an email from the breeder, in response to mine to say that she knows loads of dogs with terrible diarrhoea at the moment - but none of her own - and maybe there's something nasty going round? But she lives in a different region. I'd call her tonight but am waiting in vain for the vet to phone me still, as they promised.

Any vest reading this, what do you think about ours needing to discuss blood test results with a colleague before speaking to the dog owner? Does this sound ominous?

it simply suggests the vet wants to talk it over with a colleague, which may mean there's something unexpected, or may mean there's nothing conclusive and he/she wants to ask someone where to go next; or they may be talking to a specialist over the phone, as I suggested upthread. It doesn't necessarily mean anything ominous. You and they already know this is a difficult case to cure, and I am sure they are nearly as keen to sort it out as you are, and want to be sure about what they say next. Although I appreciate it's frustrating that they've closed without ringing you back, the likeliest reasons for this are that a) some dire emergency came in and they've been rushed off their feet doing emergency surgery or similar, b) your vet is still waiting to hear back from the colleague he/she wants to speak to, and doesn't want to talk to you before getting the necessary info, or c) they forgot (does happen!)
If the antibiotics finish on Saturday, you could always request an extension till Monday so that the surgery isn't shut for the weekend when the problem resurges, if it's not contra-indicated to do that, for some reason.

Thanks, alice15. I've literally just been phoned by the vet whilst beginning to type my reply. Basically, of the three things tested, only ONE of them - folate - was raised/ too high and the vet said that this is unusual. If they were heading towards a definitive diagnosis, then all three of those tests would have come back as raised but they didn't.

So they're trying to get hold of a specialist, exactly as you predicted. But the specialst is on holiday. Meanwhile, the main vet is also on holiday next week and will hand me over to a colleague. The vet did agree to prescribe more antibiotics - which is really good - but what does all this mean and what will being on antibiotics for so long be doing to Rollo???

It would be foolish of me to ask if you or anyone else has come across raised folate - independent of other blood levels - and what that might mean, as of course it's unwise to try to diagnose over the internet. However, as I'm about to google it, it'd be great to get some/ any idea of why folate might be high in a 6 month old golden retriever with recurrent diarrhoea and if this could be a result of the tummy trouble - rather than the cause - thus meaning we're still no further forward????????

As you know I am not a vet but I thought high folate was a result of a small intestinal bacteria overgrowth (SIBO). I only covered this in the nutrition section of my MA so could be way off track.

However again I could be totally wrong here but Cobalamin (B12) is usually low if the folate is high so by giving B12 injections it can help to cure upset tummies. If it is not the cause, the balance can be affected by upset tummy and that things need Cobalamin to help things settle down even if it was not the original cause.

B12 injections are cheap and easy to adminster but Solo vets on here will know I could be totally wrong - it was a while ago I was at Uni!!!

Hang on in there though

Hi Minimu11 Just googled and came up with what you're suggesting but some articles seem to imply that if you haven't withheld food for some hrs prior to blood tests, you can get wrong results because they're dietary related - and also because the red blood cells (from a jugular vein sample) have high folate levels anyway....I don't think his Cobalamin levels were low and I wonder if it's a really weird and unlcear picture? I'm also not sure if the diet he's now on - BlueWhiting and Tapioca - might be causing high folate levels...or if something the antibiotics are doing are causing the SIBO as well as short-term fixing it...or what really.

If he just needs some injectiosn, that'd be brilliant. I am so worried that this is just going to go on and on though, with no real answers and recurring diarrhoea and waiting for more and more test results and for various people to gte back from holidays....

Thank you VERY much for your reply. I never dreamt that our puppy would have chronic health issues at all. I waited ages to find the right breeder with healthy pups (though that one passed us on to the one we finally went with as her own dogs matings didn't work)...and we got the last of the 3 litters and no choice but I assumed that Rollo was from excellent stock and all we'd have to cope with was ordinary puppy stuff...Stupidly, I therefore also chose not to take out pet insurance either as I've never needed it for any other pets....

Hope we get some definitive answers soon....

It is such a shame you are having such a hard time as you have done everything to give your pup and your boys a great time.

I really hope that things are on the up and the vets are now on the case as I say I really am not the one to give medical advice and can come to the wrong conclusions!

fingers crossed for a speedy resolution

I have to say I was reading through all your posts thinking small intestinal bacterial overgrowth as a possibility. As the other vets have said some of these cases can take a while to get to the bottom of and be frustrating for the vets involved as well as the owners.
I have had two patients who went off to Bristol and had biopsies etc to get an SIBO diagnosis and end up on long term very low doses of oxytetracycline to control their diarrhoea.

It sounds as if they are doing a great job of following it up. SIBO is hard to diagnose, but folate can be a useful indicator - as Lizcat says, the treatment (and diagnosis) is usually down to long term antibiotic treatment and the response to that. According to one specialist at the RVC, at least, if long term antibiotic treatment is needed, it rarely causes resistance problems, and affected dogs sometimes outgrow the problem anyway, although others need very long term treatment. This does sound to me like the sort of case where a specialist will be able to give very useful advice, and SIBO does fit the picture really well, including the folate, so hopefully you are on the up now.

Many, many thanks. Hope I can get it sorted soon. The vet receptionist has just told me they've discontinued the food that Rollo's settled on!!!

The vet is only in for one hr today - when I think I'm unavailable - and the receptionist says she doesn't know anything about continuing the antibiotics!! Oh no!

At this rate, the vet will go on holiday and NOT prescribe further antibiotics AND Rollo will change diet again and the result is likely ot be appalling - with diarrhoea caused by both no antibiotic treatment AND new food!!!

We're almost out of the food he's on as I couldn't order in more till I had the vet's advice about what was wrong with Rollo...

Got an email from the breeder last night to say she's never had any puppies with food intolerances/ allergies but maybe Rollo has this? As I'd also mentioned the word, re-homing to her, she went on to suggest the local rehoming group and I freaked out at the thought of our rollo being anywhere but with me. So clearly this is more a last resort panic-thought based on nights and days hosing down diarrhoea, rather than something I can really contemplate. Even the DCs - who are v uninvolved with Rollo really really don't want him re-homed.

So given this doesn't now feel like an otpion at all - and I don't think it ever really was, when it came to the reality of this - I just really NEED some answer and everyone seems to be away at the moment in the vet world!

Hope I have better feedback soon.

Thanks again

Solo, can't add anything that's already been said, however just wanted to give you some support and let you know how much admiration I have for you whilst you are going through this. I am virtually hand holding, hope you get some answers soon!

Thanks spam... Have spoken again to vet who's agreed to carry on with antibiotics and is going to try to find out what alternative food he can be on as his usual one is discontinued. Got another email from breeder to ask if she can also discuss things with her own vet and also put it out on a golden retriever forum - which I'm v happy for her to do. Got to wait now till the replacement vet comes back from her hol. and takes over Rollo's case. Think I'll know nothing more till next week earliest.

Meanwhile, Rollo is happily mooching around, sleeping 12 hrs a night, still resists walking far on the lead (could this be physical rather than just not wanting to walk???) plays happily retrieving his toy fabric duck in the garden and is really, as puppies go - no trouble at all a lot of the time...except when he becomes a nightmare pooing machine!

glad to hear you are having some fun with him during this difficult time. I really do hope his problems are resolved and that everything settles down well then you can have even more fun and enjoyment with him

How's it going Solo?
I've been following your woes and thinking about you - particularly this week when we've been to a holiday cottage where there was a 5 month-old golden retriever puppy staying next door. She was glorious, and it made me hope that you can get to enjoy Rollo full-time soon.

solo It is cheaper to buy the tapioca and whiting online. I had to use this food for my dog last year - he didnt have scoots, but he had terrible ulcers in his mouth, throat and down to his tum.

There are various threads about him and what the outcome was, an exclusion diet along with various antibiotics and steroids have sorted him out. We still have no conclusive diagnosis of why/what/how but we are very very happy that now Loofa is 90% well.

We saw specialists and vets and chucked money at it until we couldnt do anything more. Sometimes, there is no conclusion - that is very hard to swallow, but try not to panic.

Thinking of you and understand your concern.

Thanks. We've managed to buy the v last bag of the special food from the vets but it IS going to be discontinued and I'm still not sure this is anything to do with food at all.

Meanwhile, Rollo is still on antibitoics - his 6th course I think - which seems to be keeping the diarrhoea at bay. Apart from the night before last, wehn he woke me barking twice, he's been lovely - sleeping 11 hrs or more out of choice all night and doing general puppyish stuff during the day. Yesterday and today we had some great on lead dog walks as my DCs came with me and walked/jogged ahead, which seems to motivate Rollo to keep going too, rather than flopping down every few minutes.

No further news from the vets and been told to phone on Wed when they'll be able to say which vet is taking over care for now and what their thoughts might be.

The breeder has had loads of replies online to her email about Rollo but so many mixed opinions that i feel no one really knows. Like you say, Coffeee...maybe there'll be no definitive answers.

Short-term concerns for me are: why hasn't the vet suggested any probiotics given Rollo is having so many antibiotics? What will be happening to Rollo's guts?

One vet we saw in passing the other day said they might want to do biopsies of Rollo's intestines which i presume means general anaesthetic and the inevitable risks involved....???

Rollo's lovely dog trainer is going to have him next weekend, unless he's in the middle of various further interventions - just to give me another short break, which will be good. The DCs have been quite good with Rollo recently but still wish we could get longer blocks of time to go out into the local town or on day trips instead of needing to be back for Rollo always.

I've noticed that the last 2 days, Rollo seems more able and willing to walk further and play longer - which must be a good sign as he was seeming quite tired and listless even for a golden retriever.

It's a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde scenario with him really - he's either gorgeous and cute and laid back and obliging - or he's a complete nightmare, with me up all night with him and feeling unable to go on as his owner.

I'll keep you up to date with any further news and many thanks for your interest and support

Good luck with him.

Just wanted to share my enthuiasm for barf, have had two dogs just like Solo... I still need therapy.

Anyway both were better on barf... astoundingly better. For the current it has cured him but on any other food and we tried all the good ones he hose pipes mucosy hot chocolate round the house. The horror! Antibiotics helped for a while but moving to raw was what changed him and over time he can have many more treats although when I have ever introduced a small amount of good quality kibble I am soon motivated to leave well alone!

Solo I am so glad that you and the DCs are having some nice times with Rollo and that you are getting a break this weekend. I hope there are more sunny days ahead!