Tricky stops

[Slubberdegullion]

On walks I'm trying to bits and bobs of whistle training with Elsie as she really enjoys it and it makes her much more focussed on me throughout the walk.

We haven't been able to start gun dog training (yet) due to other family commitments

This is all for fun, she'll never be worked and I doubt very much I would ever have the time to do proper field trials.

OK so we have a near perfect stop and down at whatever distance with one blast of the whistle. She will maintain the down for as long as I like with no distractions and with people walking past. There seems to be a circumference of control that if there are joggers or cyclists and certainly other dogs she will sod the down and either randomly recall or go and say hello. Not good. She will recall immediately whatever the distraction, but for some things (like cyclists) it would be safer if she remained in the down rather than hurtling back to me.

How do I set up a training situation to work on this?

She is rewarded for the stop by having a ball thrown (she has to wait for a release cue first).

Other things I would like to try are a stop while she is recalling, and a stop while she is in full flight going out to pick up the ball?
How do I do this? I'd also like to be able to recall her while she is running out to pick up the ball. She seems deaf to everything when she is doing this.

Thanks as always for any advice.

I have no idea how to do this, my head is too foggy this morning, but I am instantly of your long lasting down stay/sit stay.

this is the bain of my life at the moment with pupstar.

Training to get a better down with distractions - up the distractions but make sure you are nearer.

So get dog into a down and stand next to her and get DC's to ride around on a bike - in the distance to start with and then they can get nearer - when the down is solid you can move away. I would be rewarding and throwing treats to the dog if the down is kept - if she moves I wousl shrug my shoulders say nothing and pop her indoors and not interaction for a few minutes. I reckon it will take her no more than a few days. Then up it outside put her on a long lead (If you want ) put her in a down near somewhere quite challenging.
I spend quite a bit of time by our local skateboard park. Great place to work on training and to get dogs to ignore distractions. Another place is your local football club if you can get a dog to listen to you when footballs are being kicked around and men running about madly - you are pretty much there.

My collies also spend time outside of the local tennis courts if I can get them working with tennis balls being hit every where I know I have a pretty good concentration from them.

Re the stop and call off a ball chase.

I give a command to chase the ball. So if I throw a toy I yell ballee (bit embarrassed about that but it just happened!)

So to call off a ball I would throw the ball and then say nothing the dog should not go to fetch it - it should become a dead ball. Then I throw a second ball and do say ballee so the dog should get the second ball and leave the first alone.

If the dogs goes after the first toy make it a slightly more boring toy than the second to start with.

When the dog is happy to leave the first toy you can then send him to the first toy but do not say ballee half way to the first toy start to yell ballee and wave teh toy about above you head be dead exciting and when the dog is looking at you throw the second toy.

Soon you can just call out the command when the dog has been sent to the first toy to stop and fetch the second toy.

The above will work with very dedicated chasers you may not need to do all the sequences if you dog is a controlled chaser!

So my aim is to send the dog for the first toy and then call ballee and the dog will leave the first and come bounding back for the second.

Now gundog trainers do this differently as they like a stop before resending to the second dummy.

So do the above but ask for a stop before you throw the second toy and before you yell - I guess if you are gun dogging it will be Get on.

HTH

That is fantastic minimu. Thanks for your long post. I'm going to need to read it several times to fully digest it!

Currently she has to sit and wait before I release her to do a retrieve (with OK and a pointy finger gesture) would this be ok to stick with or should I add a dedicated "ballee" cue?

Love the idea of doing training near a tennis club, we will have to work up to that one. Can definitely get some cycling and scootering distractions in though.

Coffee it is so pleasing when they do get it.

Families can amble past Elsie with her lying down totally fixated on me off in the distance.
[oh the power]

They always go 'oooooh'

And I go

But inside I am punching the air

There are obv safety advantages to training it too but nothing quite beats a little bit of dog training private pride

mm

I'll answer my own question. I guess I need a specific 'retrieve the ball' cue rather than the generic 'OK!' release cue I use for everything.

Is that right?

But ballee or get on???? What to use?!?

My labradors are all trained to the gun - and have done reasonably well at working tests so I'll try and add a bit of help here.

For the stop whistle and maintaining it with distractions it's 'just' practice which will improve it. I would establish at what distance you are able to control her at a stop with the distractions you're trying to eliminate - the joggers, other dogs, cyclists - whether it be 2 feet from you or 20 and work to improve it inch by inch. So, as mimimu says - take her somewhere you know you'll find the distractions, start with what you know she can do and increase the distance inch by inch. Try really hard not to set her up for a fall by getting the distance too big, too fast.

I'm afraid I don't agree with thrown treats for a gundog, simply because it would encourage mine to move from the spot I want them to stay on! I walk to them with the praise (or treat) and if they inch forwards or move I take them back to where they were meant to be, sit them up again and walk off. Then back to them and praise if they've stayed put.

An extension of the stop whistle training is the next step you're after. To stop whilst they've been sent out for something (be it a tennis ball retrieve or recall). It is the logical progression with a working dog. If I send my girls for a retrieve, I expect them to stop at the whistle and to take direction in the form of hand signals (left, right and back). Although natural hunting ability is a priceless skill, there are occasions where you don't want the dog's hunting skills to take over - eg if I've sent out 2 dogs at the same time for 2 different birds or dummies; it's not up to them which one they pick, it's up to me. I send them in a certain direction and if they deviate, it's the stop whistle and direction. I can direct my dogs up to a distance of about half a mile.

With the tennis ball retrieve, do you sit her up next to you and ask her to wait while you throw and then send?

Try sitting her up, making her to wait and then walk out to place a tennis ball a short distance from you. Walk back to her and then send for the retrieve. Usually, this retrieve is at a slower pace than chasing a thrown ball and will give you a better chance to stop her mid retrieve. To start with, stop her literally just after you've sent her, then again, build up the distance.

If you do that say 10 times, try to stop her no more than once or twice and keep it very random. You don't want her to learn or expect the stop otherwise she will become very hesitant on the retrieve which is A Bad Thing.

There is nothing in the world for me which beats the sight of my dogs doing what they're bred for or the feeling that comes from working with them. It's marvellous .

You've done really well to get a good stop trained - and if you and she enjoy it ......

Thanks daisy, another really helpful post.

Yes, currently she has to sit next to me and wait for me to release her to go and retrieve the ball. It's not 100% successful atm as sometimes she is literally quivering with excitement and is quite unable to contain herself. If she does go without releasing her I'm never quite sure whether to bring her back to where she was sat and do it again, or to give a 'too bad' and pocket the ball. Thing is she's already rewarded herself by getting the ball

I hadn't thought about putting her in a sit-stay and walking out to place the ball, but that might help to reduce some of the excitement and make her a bit more responsive. Interesting about only doing it a few times.

Lots to think about here, it's good to plan out in my head what I'm going to try on a walk, as, as you say I don't want to set her up to fail.

How old is she Slubber?

She sounds much like all of my girls - and the quivering excitement is the very best part of it. They really, really want to do it. Retrieving is what they're designed for and they do so love it. The thing to teach is steadiness without crushing their spirit; and it's not easy.

At the dizzy height of field trialling it's all about speed, accuracy and style; the speed and style bit don't happen if their spirit is crushed.

It sounds as though the most valuable thing you can add to your training is steadiness - and I do that by teaching mine that all retrieves are not for them - only some of them.

I do that by sitting the dog up at heel using the stop whistle and walking out to place 5 or 6 or more balls/dummies out in front - sort of fanned out and at different distances and then walk back to the dog (who's hopefully still sitting and waiting - keep looking back at her without her knowing you're doing it and if she moves, go back to her and sit her up again).

Then send her for one - any one - when she's brought it back and delivered it into your hand, sit her up again and then go and pick one up yourself and walk back to her side. Do the same again. Then one for her, then 2 retrieves for you and so on; again at random. Keep on going with it - no more than 10 minutes a day or so and steadiness will just happen. If she makes a move towards a ball she's not been sent for - and she might to start with - shout the command that works well (I bellowed 'leave it') or use the whistle to stop her, whichever works best, bring her back in and start again. In the field, it's called 'running in' - and it's A Very Bad Thing - can be a fatal mistake.

If she ignores you, don't repeat it so she doesn't learn it's OK to ignore you and don't praise her when she brings you back the ball. Just take it and make no fuss. Sit her up and start again. Praise like a loon when she does it right though. She'll soon work out which is right.

From your pic, she looks to be from working lines, (I'd love to see her pedigree to see if I'm wrong ) so it'll be in her blood to be biddable, once she's worked out how to control herself!

I can distract puppy from most things - been to footie pitch and she lay down, got treats and didnt move a muscle, its just when I include a 'stay' to the mix she forgets herself and moves.

I know it will come soon, she wants to work for me and is gorgeous. And I agree I love it when praise comes along. I do get it because she is so focused on me for 95% of the time.

My 2 yr old boy is such a well behaved gem of a dog, he just 'does it' whereas puppy has a battle of wills first of all with herself. Lil minx that she is.

I was trying to remember how my friend trains their gundogs and I think it is similar to daisy - will ask next time I am there.

She's 15 months daisy. She doesn't have any working lines in her afaik (well no FT accolades in her 5gen pedigree), only show awards (am not very in the know about all the different qualifications) saying that she is quite a small 'delicate' lab, I get asked loads if she is working, but I think that is mostly because she is very lean and I have a whistle!

She will LOVE that training exercise with all the balls. Just adores anything new and ball related. Just need to go on a tennis ball hunt through all my pockets, under car seats, under the sofas etc etc

Coffee I had no idea that doing all this training could be so much fun for me as well as the dog. Why I get such a surge of pleasure having a manky old tennis ball returned to me I have no idea

Ha ha ha

Well we did the fanned out balls exercise this morning. What do you do with a dog who attempts to fit three tennis balls in her mouth simultaneously ?
After a hilarious but rubbish start we both got the hang of it and she sat and waited beautifully while I went out and retrieved my own balls.

I have added in a 'retrieve the ball' cue, am going to use ballee as I understand that dog's are not good at generalising so if I do ever get to go and do gun dog training and use the proper dummies I'll switch to the appropriate cues then. Hope that is right thing to do.

No working background? I knew I'd be wrong! She looks just like a working dog - narrow of chest, long legs and a more delicate head. She is delicious! I'd love to see her pedigree; fancy pm'ing me?

I never meant to work my dogs. I had a very, very energetic girlie who I could never tire out and who was quite a big handful to control so I looked online for a gundog trainer (lab=gundog, therefore worth a try!) and it went from there. It turned out I had a super talented dog, who was only handicapped by her less than competent handler. She really, really is a fabulous dog and if she hadn't been my first dog would have been field trial material. My trainer said she could have gone miles, if it wasn't for me!

I loved it from my very first lesson! Now look at us. Me and my house are permanently covered in a sea of lab hair; and I fear I smell a bit of dog .

Laugh your bloody head off!

One of my girls can happily fit 2 balls in - but three is one too many.

I use the same cue for balls/dummies/game - the action is what you're after - the send out to find something and bring it back to me. Gundog bods use 'get out' or 'go fetch' accompanied by bending over to the side of the dog and eventually with your arm pointing them in the direction you want them to go. I'm not sure there's any merit in having a different command for different items.

When you've got the steadiness sorted, you can move on to directional retrieves .......

That is really interesting daisy, that you didn't start from the get go with the intention of creating a super working dog. How charming that your trainer said it was only you that was holding her back!

I've picked up a few books from the library but tbh they were such dry depressing reads, and as I have failed to do any of the 'correct' training from the start I gave them back. Thankfully she is still showing endless
patience with me so I'm going to keep going, even if I have to do it on my own. She has such a natural desire to retrieve things (especially from water) and gets such obvious pleasure from it.

Funnily I already have developed a bendy over pointy arm hand signal. I might have a quick squiz on you tube to see if mine looks right.

Cor directional retrieves sound VERY advanced.
I must not jump the gun though, will stick to working on steadiness, stopping and a retrieve cue for the time being.

Lol at sea of dog hair

Will pm you

Oh my goodness. Have just had a look at your girls on your profile.

GORGEOUS! (and really good photography too )

My trainer doesn't mince her words! And although she's reduced me to tears only twice - she was right. My dog was so much better than me - and continues to be so .

There is a book which the library might be able to track down which isn't too dry and is pretty much in line with current thinking by John Weller called 'A Simple Approach to Gundog Training'. It's a little book, but is so clear and well written. It helped explain quite a few things to me. It's out of print, but may be track downable.

The photography is my DH - and he's taken incredible pics of the girls. Somehow he captures their characters in the pics. I know not how. Makes me a bit cross that he can do it better than me .

In the middle of writing this our farmer has just rung to tell us one of our chickens was strolling up the lane outside our house. I belted outside with 2 of our girls and sent the puppy into the hedge the chook was hiding in to 'go fetch'. Bloody hell, she was brilliant! We need to improve control and steadiness in her, but for 11 months old she was marvellous. She trotted back out of the hedge with a bloody big chicken in her chops; perfectly held. Not sure how - a chicken is much, much bigger than a pheasant or duck!

Shame she didn't come and deliver immediately to hand, but she is only a baby and it was her first go on live game. . She had a little dance of joy, tried to bring it to us and lost her grip, so sat there with her mouth on top of it holding it down. Poor chook!

Oh dear your trainer sounds ferocious.

I'll have a scout about and see if I can find that book you have recommended. The little aspect sounds good [poor attention span]

Wow I am EXTREMELY impressed at your puppy. What a clever clever girl. Am imagining her dance of joy, they are so funny when they are obviously chuffed to bits with their own cleverness.

Have had two short session today with the fanned balls. Gawd. She is quite determined to attempt to retrieve all 4 simultaneously
Stop work much better though with distractions (jogger with dog) achieved.