Sleep deprivation and puppy.....

[Solo2]

How long can I expect the sleep deprivation to continue, having a puppy who is now almost 14 weeks? He WAS sleeping happily in his crate from about 8pm till about 5.45am - which was pretty much perfect for me, as I have to get him up by 6am, to do the dog stuff (and then the cat stuff) before the DCs stuff, prior to school run and work. But over the last few weeks, and despite him getting more exercise, now he can go on walks/ out and about, he will be in his crate from about 9.30pm till 5am. This has completely spoiled the evening stint with the DCs and is just that little bit too early for me, as I'm wrenched out of sleep at 5am with him barking and need to rush to him, still feeling sleepy, before he wakes the DCs.

It makes all the difference to me if I can have a cup of tea from about 5.20am till 5.45am - in terms of starting the day! It also helps hugely if I can know Rollo is asleep for the night from about 8pm.

When he woke me this a.m. at 5am, all he seemed to want was a small wee - not an urgent poo - and then to play. I was really not in the mood to throw toys around the garden at 5am in my dressing gown!!

As I am currently experiencing my first break from DCs in 10 yrs (they're away with their school for 3 nights), I'd hoped for a long lie in but instead I feel utterly exhausted already and it's only midday!

Is it just like when you have DCs and as soon as you think they're in one routine, they suddenly change again?

I know that at least one new puppy owner on this list has their pup happily crated from 8 or 9pm till 7.30am and Rollo - our pup - is a larger breed - golden retriever. Does he really really need the loo and, as he's been so good with barely ever an accident in the house, should I just keep going with rushing to his crate the moment he wakes and barks? I can't really leave him barking anyway as I don't want him to wake the DCs at 5am.

I am absolutely shattered and desperately in need of a nap but all the time Rollo naps during the day, I'm either working or catching up on other things. Can anyone help?

PS - It's not that I sleep from 9.30pm till 5am BTW, as after he's crated there are always other things that must be done. So I'm sleeping only from about 10.45pm till 5am maximum and less whent he DCs are sick in the night, as happened recently. I'm also getting more exercise (no bad thing) because of the puppy - but this means I'm completely exhausted!

is it not possible to have your morning tea with the pup loose? similarly why does he need to be asleep in his crate at 8pm if you arent going to bed then? sorry, but dont get it

you truly have my sympathies. Our pup (4 months-ish) is going into her crate at around 10.30/11pm and wants to start the day at around 5.30am (although she snoozes in the lounge by my feet from about 9.30pm).

Anything before 6am is just too early for me! We have had some mornings where she has wanted to play at around 5.10am.

The only thing that seems to be helping is making her room as dark as possible and having a fitted cover over her crate (with the door covered too). This seems to be buying us another quarter of an hour or so. Just wish I could stop the birds outside singing.

Ignoring her isn't really possible as I don't think our neighbours would be best pleased and I don't want DD woken up either.

We are trying not to reward her when she wakes early - very little attention and no breakfast until 7am. If she wakes before 5.30am, she is back in her crate once she has been to the toilet.

Any other ideas would be much appreciated..

When I complained about the early start to our dog trainer she just grinned and said it was completely normal. Great!

Chick...the moment Rollo is out of his crate, he needs constant supervision, unless he's eating! I can't let him go unsupervised yet in the house or garden (got a v lovely garden I'm proud of plus a natural swimming pond that would be destroyed by him if I let him paddle unsupervised). He's now big enough to jump up at kitchen surfaces and also gnaws the kitchen units.

I just need about 15 mins post-waking, to feel awake properly - so I have a kettle in my bedroom and make a cup of tea there. the moment I open my bedroom door, DS2 wakes up (he's an early waker at 4.45am often) and I really need a few mins to be ready to 'face the day'! So that early am cup of tea alone is crucial to me feeling even close to 'human'

I've just put him in his crate at 9.15pm tonight, having tried some vigorous play with him in the garden for the last 30 mins. Last night, he went in at 8pm but then woke barking madly at 9.30am and was still awake at 5.00am. I like him in his crate at 8pm because, again, I can't leave him unsupervised whilst I'm in a different part of the house. Barking almost always indicates he needs to poo/wee urgently. It's not accidents I'm worried about it's that the house and even his main room - the kitchen - isn't fully dog-proofed.

Shineon...like your idea of building up 10 min increments as I know Rollo can wait for ages to go to the toilet if he has to. The only difficulty is him waking the DCs - well, DS1 really, who needs to sleep till 6.45am or is too tired all day.

Just10more...like the idea of making his crate darker. I'm sure the bird song and the morning light are what triggers him to wake up. After his v early morning - fully supervised - visit to the garden to toilet and play, he has breakfast around 5.45am and then I usually do crate him again whilst getting us all up and ready for work/school. He comes out again at 7.30am when we leave for school followed by his morning walk.

I really don't mind if he wakes at 5.45am or - like was happening before - I actually wake him myself at 5.45am. It's being woken, suddenly, and within seconds, having to wrench myself from bed/ sleep/ dreams, straight down the stairs to the kitchen and act really happy to play for 30 mins in the garden, before I feel truly awake!

I personally think wanting a puppy (or any dog) to be shut in a crate at night from 8pm until 6am is a little ambitious, but if you want the dog to sleep for that time, he'll have to manage it. I think if you want to put him in at 8 though, for now you're going to have to let him out for a wee at 10pm ish and then put him back in his crate afterwards without speaking to him or making eye contact. He must learn these times are for toileting and not playing and that things are on your terms, not his.

You could do the same in the morning, or if you want to make life super easy fro yourself, stuff a kong before bed (use part of his breakfast kibble soaked in warm water if you prefer) and pop it in the freezer overnight. Then when he wakes in the morning, let him have a quick wee and pop him back in the crate with the kong. It'll keep him busy for at least another 45 minutes, probably longer.

To be honest you are incredibly lucky he is willing to stay in his crate for that long and go back in it so soon after in the morning. If anything he will get more and more active from this stage onwards and until about 4 years old.

Are you doing any training with him? Walks and play time are great for expending extra energy, but training also helps and you can use it to stop unwanted behaviour like jumping up on kitchen counters and chewing cabinets.

In all honestly I think if you are putting a puppy to bed at 8pm then they are bound to want to get up early.

From 8pm onwards (ie once the kids are in bed) is when I train (obviously only very short sessions in a young pup) and play with them.

Puppies never go to bed until I do (11pm ish) and my current went through 2 weeks or so of getting up at 6.30 and ever since (so from 11 weeks) has just got up with us around 7.30 - 8 ish, later at weekends.

Oh Solo - I thought you were going to escape this! I have had problems from the beginning with Rory getting up too early in the morning. It is only in the past 6 weeks or so, since the clocks changed, that I feel he is consistently getting up at a reasonable time. I have to be up at 7.00am on a school day, and I treat anything after 6.00am as reasonable, but since we got Rory I have been up as early as 4.30am.....

For the past 6 months or so, if he got up before 6, I would take him out to the loo, with no eye contact and minimal commands, then put him back in his crate and go back to bed. Usually it would only be another 20 mins before he started whining and barking again, but I found that translated into a later start on the following days. Our pup appears to be a creature of habit with a very accurate bodyclock, and the trick seems to be to disrupt any bad routine before it gets established.

Things do get easier as they get older and you can trust them more. I know at times in the school holidays last October I resorted to a kong with just a smear of kong filler round it and a couple of biscuits in it so I could get my breakfast in peace. That is totally unnecessary now.

Can you give him a chew or something in the evening, so that he is busy but not sleeping? And put him to bed when you go. I know it must be difficult with no other adult in the house. With pup sleep deprivation I sometimes went off to bed at 9.30pm to try and catch up on sleep and then dp put Rory in his crate at 11.00pm or so.

Hang in there. It will get better!

We have a Lab, so similar size and tendencies etc, but we never put him in his crate until we were going to bed ourselves. He would fall asleep in the room where we were, and then I would wake him at our bedtime to make him go to the toilet in the garden before putting him to bed. I would have to bribe him awake with food at that point (a couple of training treats). Now I give him a Bonio at bedtime.

You have to treat the barking as a kind of 'controlled crying' thing, as he is obviously using it as a way of getting your attention. When you go to him in the morning, don't make eye contact, talk, or play with him, just attend to his needs and ignore him until you interact on your own terms.

It doesn't sound like you trainer is very good, as this is just the kind of thing that can be dealt with through training. Find someone else.

Oh, and the chewing will stop once his permanent teeth are bedded in. Just try and make sure you give him plenty of other things to chew on. Ours destroyed most designated chew toys, but filled, sterilised bones were great.

Good luck!

Woo you are making this so complicated and no wonder you are knackered. YOU MUST make some puppy proof rooms and a section of the garden. You must not and can not supervise the puppy all the time. One it is not good for you and it is not good for the puppy either he has to learn to be able to spend time on his own.

Put up temporary fencing in the garden - the orange stuff that builders use and pen out an area that the puppy can go in. Also in the house puppy proof an area it is not hard to do.

You really are expecting too much of the puppy to be in a crate from 8.00 and then on and off until 7.30.

You need to be able to keep the puppy up until you go to bed and then out to wee and pop into the crate until you wake up. I would make a flask of tea and drink it when the puppy is outside having his morning wee.

My dogs are never played with in the sitting room so in the evening when/if we go in there they know it is the room to chill- they get played with outside, in the kitchen in the hall etc but when we are sitting down so are they. So it is no trouble having them up until we go to bed. I would give your last meal to the puppy when you are sitting in the sitting room get him into a down and at regular intervals just through him part of his dinner - he will learn that when he is still and quiet he gets rewarded.

Once the puppy is in his crate ignore ignore ignore. I would cover the crate but if he wakes at a time not suitable than just leave him (Be prepared for him to work harder to try to get you to let him out for a bit - so he may bark longer or louder but ignore ignore ignore unless you like him being your alarm clock!)

When my guys are put to bed they stay there until I tell them, I never ever ever go down to them (unless one is ill). As a 14 week old goldie I would not be going down to let him out to wee - let him wee in his crate, he will not like it and will soon stop doing it. If you take him out to wee you are training him and his bladder that he needs to go at night - he does not.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my thread. Just an update. Have more or less puppy-proofed the kitchen now, although as he can jump and reach the work surfaces, I have to remember to push all the clutter far away from the edge! Have had no time at all since my OP to get hold of any kind of temporary fencing for garden. So still need to sort that out.

As for sleeping, I've worked out that I can put him in his crate with a stuffed kong for 45 mins from 7.45pm till 8.30pm during which time I can do a short version of my twins' night-time routine/ quality time with me, before they go to sleep at 8.30pm. Then I go down and let Rollo into the garden and train/play with him till around 9.30pm when he foes back to his crate for the night.

He's stopped waking at 5.00am and I go down, happily, after a cup of tea at 5.40am and usually then wake him and take him into the garden for toileting/ play/ training and then give him bkfast around 6am when my own day (pre-dog) needs to start. He usually slumps down into a nap on the kitchen floor. Then I attend to the cats' needs and my own getting ready process and support my sons too till we leave for the school run at 7.30am with Rollo in the car. Drop off sons around 7.50am and take Rollo to local park for his morning walk before I start work.

He's back in his crate from about 9.00am till 11.30am and then has an hour in the garden again toileting/ playing/ training/ lunch. Back in again from 12.45pm till 2.00pm when he has his afternoon walk in the park and then I collect DCs from school, sometimes with Rollo too, as he might have a walk round the streest near DCs school.

The hardest time is when we get home and DCs needs are full-on - with their homework support/ music practice (usually 2 hrs homework plus music to do) and their supper to make whilst Rollo is also v needy and lively! This is the time when I could really do with a part of the garden fenced off! Wish I could 'hire' someone to sort this out, as have no time at all to go to anywhere they sell temporary fencing, let alone put it up.

I'm then in an out of the garden doing training/ playing with Rollo and cooking and helping DCs with homework till around 6.30pm and then can focus more on Rollo till 7.30pm.

At the moment, this seems to work - just about - and Rollo seems happy and fine with this. However, I'm aware that at some point I'll need to fit in much more exercise for him. He had his first off-lead run at a local dog friendly Nature Reserve, without dog trainer helping, at the w/e. He was incredibly happy and it was like having a real dog, as opposed to a puppy, IYSWIM?! However, this place is too far to drive to in my normal working week. Ideally, I'd like to take him there in the early evening but couldn't do this and look after DCs and nor could DCs come as well because of their homework/ music practice demands and then they're exhausted and want some TV/ PC time before sleep.

I'll have to see how it all pans out. Meanwhile, Rollo is growing hugely every day. I no longer need a crate divider in his 48 inch crate, as he's so massive! He is absolutely brilliant with loud noises/ people not bothering him (went to a country fair at w/e and there were real gun shots firing and masses of people and he was totally laid back). He loves everyone he meets and people keep calling himt he Andrex Puppy, as he's so golden and cute - but getting a bit gangly now at just over 15 weeks. Sorry to go on so long but he's just lovely, although overwhelmingly full-on. Best of all, he can now walk properly for longer lengths of time on his lead and even lets me jog slowly beside him, although minutes later, he'll flop down, roll in the grass and decide it's time to rest!

I am glad that you are getting into more of a manageable routine now. It does get easier. I also felt at the beginning that I had lost any free time I had, but that has now passed.

I am slightly concerned that you see a fenced bit of garden as a place to put him on his own in the late afternoon/early evening while you deal with dinner and the kids. I don't think he would be happy playing on his own outside, and will probably just start barking.

How are the boys with him now? Has the playbiting subsided?

Purplefrog, what I meant was the first part of the garden fenced off, that he can access via the kitchen, where I always am! This would mean that instead of me rushing after him each time he goes into the garden, whilst I'm cooking, I'd be able to carry on tossing the burgers etc! instead of leaving them to burn - whilst throwing a toy for him etc etc, as he goes in an out happily.

He already happily plays for stretches on his own or brings me toys to throw for him or to play tug with. So unlike putting him somewhere separate to the family and leaving him, he'd just have the freedom to grab a toy and run into the garden, safely, without me always needing to be right beside him. He could also choose to flop down beside me in the kitchen, too, which he does anyway. It'd just mean he can autonomously access the garden too.

My sons love him but still play v v little with him - except when the dog trainer is here! Unfortunately, the minute I leave them alone with him in the garden - which is usually that tricky time of the evening - this is also his hyper time and he bites in play. I can totally predict if he's going to do this with me and manage the situation but the twins can't at all. I regularlly say things like, "He's in his hyepr mood. Make sure you've got plenty of toys for him to mouth and if he loses interest in the toy and heads just for you, that's a sign he wants to nip and play in a doggy way."

But they can't read his body language like I can, especially the son with Asperger's traits - and inevitably, within seconds, clothing or bosy is nipped.

Until he reliably doesn't do this or they learn to 'read' him more, I have to supervise. DS1 has had some short successful times with Rollo but these are rare. I suspect that once Rollo is more mature and going for lots of long, unleashed walks with us all, they'll enjoy him more.

Ah... I see now what you mean about the fenced off bit of garden - that sounds ideal if you can get it organised!

In a couple of months time, he will be over the play-biting phase and will have lost all (or most) of his needle-like puppy teeth - just in time for the school summer holidays.

When we first got our Lab pup at 9 weeks i was treating her like a new born and putting her to bed earlier than we did (say bed at 8.30pm), was told by our dog trainer to put her to bed when we went - so around 10pm.-11pm , outside in garden for wee, a couple of small dog biscuits in bed , lights out. She still has this bedtime routine at 11 months !

We had a good few weeks of sleep deprivation, firstly she would cry at bedtime in her crate - she would wake up around 4am - just because she wanted us - never seemed desperate for a wee.

We had a bed for her in the back room/ kitchen when my DH used to leave for work 6am he used to leave her sleep in that , not put her in crate and I never heard a peek from her until I came down at 7.30pm.

In the end we bit the bullet and dispensed with crate and left her sleep in back room - never looked back ! We have been so lucky with her that she is not a mad chewer of furnture - the odd shoe and cushion .

I am a new lab owner and have read to only walk them for 5 minutes per month of their age, so at 14 weeks that would be3.5x5=17.5 mins. It's something to do with preventing joint problems when they're older. Or was my book out of date?

I would want my pup to sleep from 11pm to 6-7am at this age (14months) and it always worked. On a very few occasions when they were barking at night/early in the morning I always went down to them to check, took them out for a wee and back into crate. You should not offer any fuss, food, stroke, play if you want them to keep going through the night. If you do, it is encouraging the pup to cry out for your attention (they do not mind at this age if it is positive or negative), they just want your company.

Regarding walking, it is about the lead walk where the pup does not have an opportunity to rest/sleep as soon as it feels so inclined. Joint problems are big deal for Labradors (as a breed), so preventing them is important, but do not put your life on hold. If you watch them playing, it is amazing how much those poor joints take at this age from all the jumping. I find more important than limited walking to make sure that the floor in your house is not slippery and please make sure the pup does not go up and DOWN any stairs. This is very damaging.

Another thing with comfortable sleep (and I do not know if it is sentimental or it really is like that), but all my pups (and cats) always had a cuddly toy with the smell of their mother on it. The dog I have right now still loves her Charley the Monkey (from PAH) - a fluffy brown toy she got at the age of 8 weeks. She never chewed it and alway goes to sleep hugging it. It is just sooooo cute!! I think it does act in the early days a bit like mother substitute and helps them settle down. I may also be just mad!

Our back door has one small step down to get on to the patio- he manages it fine, will that do any damage? He is in and out a lot, he also jumps from the patio onto the yard ( one big step) and generally pounces on anything that moves.

I am sure one step is fine, I have the same, it is going up and down a flight of steps either at home or on the street that you should worry about. In any case you can never protect them 100%, especially if you have an active pup that pounces. It is about avoiding clearly bad environments until they grow stronger.