Dog owners with preschoolers, I need help training my children!

[fartingfran]

Our dogs preceded our children. They rub along OK together, now DS is nearly 4 he'll chuck a ball and stroke them nicely. They're closely supervised indoors because one of the dogs is an anxious soul and I don't like him to feel threatened. In the garden I have much less concern because obviously he can make a break for it if he's had enough and can't be cornered.

However, DS has been caught being pretty rotten towards them a few times now and I am worried. This afternoon I caught him outside wielding a plastic spade and frightening my old girl - she's patience itself and was just cowering and walking away but that's obviously not the point. I have told DS I will not tolerate bad behaviour towards the dogs and confiscated the spade but he doesn't seem to grasp that hurting or frightening animals is wrong and unkind.

His behaviour is always worse when he's tired (he's shattered today) and it's also always harder to get him to take in information when he's tired, but he simply didn't seem to "get" how serious it was. I've tried explanations, punishments, discussions and nothing sinks in. Of course supervision levels are being geared up each time these things happen, but I want him to stop doing it because it's horrible, not because he's scared of being hurt.

Posted here instead of Behaviour in an attempt to prevent the thread descending into the usual hysterical Daily-Mail-dog-are-all-savage-killers type affair. You lot know what I mean, I think :)

Get him involved in some training? Doing tricks etc? (the dogs, not him!) Are there any fun dog shows with junior handler type competitions? I suppose I'm thinking if he can be involved more in a positive way, he won't feel resentful of the dog for getting him into trouble if you get my drift. Can he help to brush them or feed them if he wants?
Empathy is a difficult skill for all children to learn, towards people or animals. Four year old quite often will struggle to see things from another's point of view, developmentally speaking. Try googling how children develop empathy for some examples of how you might explain things to him. Hugs to the dogs

I too have a dog and a 4 yr old. I try and make sure I never leave them together unsupervised, however, very occasionally it happens.
I discovered DD this morning 'stroking' the dog, and suspected a degree of foul play - I think there was some poking and perhaps fur pulling going on! Bless the dog, she was incredibly meek and did not retaliate, but I gave DD a good telling off. I also pointed out that the dog has a mouthful of teeth and if provoked could bite her, and if this happened because of DD being unkind to her, it would be her own fault.
Generally though, they are fine together and I encourage DD to give the dog treats and be nice.

do you do pretend play with your son? if so you could pretend to be the dog talking and say things like 'hi, can you throw a ball for me/stroke my tummy/give me a kiss/show me a nice way to behave/etc" build up to 'dog' saying 'i like it when you touch me gently/when you stroke my back/when you take me for a walk/whey you teach me new things/etc'

make it fun though and not like a lecture. you could build up to it being ds and dog as a team and mum as the enemy so to speak

I have a four year old, though not yet got the dog (and due to the former, am considering waiting another year for the latter!). Four year olds really don't understand easily, especially when tired - so try not to see your ds's behaviour as pathological (not that you are, but I know how hard it is to be patient with animal-unfriendly tots: we get the school guinea pigs from time to time, and its taken a lot of supervision and practise to get dd to handle them gently!).
I find it helps dd understand when I ask her how she would feel if someone bigger than her did xyz, or treated her in an xyz way. She knows the right answers, and it helps her with empathy - she usually modifies her behaviour after that.
But it doesn't work in the heat of the moment, iyswim - or when she's very tired/hungry/upset. Best to have that conversation at a quiet bedtime moment.
Good luck!

Thank you all so much :)

I think the empathy thing is my main concern and I guess, having read your wise words, it isn't an easy concept for a wee one to grasp. I'm forever expecting more of him than is fair, I know I am guilty of that so it isn't a surprise that I'm asking a bit much of him.

I think we'll have a chat about it tomorrow and maybe play some games involving animals. I don't think he's quite up to training yet (he's like his dad - thinks if you yell the same stuff at them often enough it will just sink in ) but I do want him to start with the basics soon (so he develops a better understanding of dog behaviour than his dad has ). Once he's got the physical ability to time it right I think he'll love clicker training.

Thanks again for your help :)

have a 3yo and 20mth old and 2yo labrador.

if i see either of the boys being mean to the dog , they get a sharp NO. i don't do big explanations.

if there's time i show them how to cuddle and stroke him, and say things like 'that's very good stroking, i think M likes that'

don't give up. i don't think your ds is being deliberately malicious, more a cause and effect thing. just keep saying no, and eventually he will stop.

DS was like that when he was 4 we used Star charts and he gets one star for not doing anything wrong and another for being particularly nice he gets a sticker then if he has behaved well. It worked and now age 5 1/2 he does have empathy (not in abundance mind) but he will get very upset if our dog is hurt or if anyone is naughty to our dog.

Be patient at age 4 little or no empathy is very common for now just settle for stoping the behaviour.

Thanks again. Reassuring to know it's likely to improve with time. I've got a copy of the Blue Dog although it's on loan to a local school just now. DS is good about being wary of strange dogs though, and asking owners if they are friendly before approaching them.

At the end of the day, supervision is no trouble, I accept that as part of life - I just want him to know that it's wrong to frighten or harm animals really. He's a sticker fiend so that might be a good tactic too :)

If you read the queen of clicker training Karen Prior's book Don't Shoot the Dog she suggests that the same principles of positive reinforcement etc work on children as well as animals. As you say you need to train both children and dogs.

Good idea! My mum's got my copy just now but perhaps it's time to dip into it again ...