Yelp - or ignore - when puppy bites?

[Solo2]

Confused by different things I've read and also from our dog-trainer - about whether or not we should ignore our pup when he bites - us or our clothes - or yelp (high pitched or low pitched? which one???).

Rollo (9 weeks and 2 days) now constantly nips our clothes and hands - not too hard but enough to put off the DCs. At first, I told DCs to stand still, tunr their backs, ignore, walk away. This had no effect on pup - who then would either keep holding on to clothing item or - especially - follow the person walking away and jump up and bite/hold trousers.

We were also constantly substituting the clothing/ hand with a soft toy for Rollo to chew instead.

Trainer told us to yelp, say "Drop" (a command he's just started to learn but doesn't much comply with) or "Sit" - an alternative behavviour to biting /jumping up. She's also told us NOT to substitute with a toy as this is just encouraging further chewing/biting behaviour.

Several 'play' sessions with DCs have disintegrated within minutes with DCs both yelling "Drop!"/"Sit!" again and again and again. I'm sure pup thinks this is part of a game. He certainly doesn't stop nipping/ jumping up.

My instinct is still to substitute with a toy, as withint the split seconds of this all happening, I want to avoid the DCs being bitten and by shoving a soft toy into Rollo's mouth, that immediately prevents him biting the DCs. But am I doing the wrong thing?

Can someone very experienced with training out this behaviour please give me a step-by-step account of exactly what to do when pup nips/ jumps up/bites clothing, please?

I am not what you'd call very experienced in training but we do/did have a very bitey puppy, which was a great shock to me as my previous dog didn't bite anything other than toys.

A combination of ignore, stand like tree with hands tucked in, yelp, storming out of room saying 'you are hurting me' and making sure toy is firmly in mouth if there is a chasing game seemed to do the trick.

He is pretty indomitable so I think the storming out was a more effective version of ignore, not good for a more nervous pup, but was my last resort and either it worked or it was a coincidence because he really started to realise it was the biting we didn't like rather than him around that stage.

It also got a lot better when he got big teeth, not least because the puppy teeth were making so many holes in our clothes, I had to set up a permanant mending station. He is 8 months now and absolutely fine, nobody has been painfully bitten for a couple of months and he plays mouthing games with ds (5yo).

When I got my second dog she was very mouthy and sometimes used to catch me, so I'd just shout OWWWW she let go and went to bed!

It's horrible when you are being given lots of conflicting advice, confusing for you and for puppy as consistency is very important.

If you have any time (and I know from other threads you are very pushed) can I suggest you get and read this book, not only is it an excellent book on raising and training, but it will give you a much better understanding of how your dog works.

Make sure the children don't play with the puppy unsupervised, children are all high pitched, shrieky, screamy and flappy, all things that will turn on a dogs prey drive and increase biting.

'Be a Tree' , turn back, fold arms etc, is good advice for the children.

It is good for you to yelp at an overenthusiastic teeth attack, you need to follow it with imediately walking away and ignoring the puppy therefore he learns that teeth stop play, but won't work for the kids as they are unlikely to get it right and their yelps are likely to just excite him.

Out of interest when you say 'play sessions with the DC's' in what way are they playing?

Hi Solo, I took our puppy (5 months) to a trainer recently because the advice I was given just wasn't working. I was doing the ouch, turn away thing since he got here and it just didn't seem to register with him. The Trainer said she would never ignore bad behaviour and told me to say NO or whatever command you are using and remove him from you by the collar (never remove the arm from him) It really is working and it seems like he just wasn't getting the point that we didn't want him to nip when we were ignoring him. That said I would still say your twins should go for the Tree response while you intervene.
I think, like with babies and kids, different things work for differnt breeds and personalities.
I am not however a trainer so don't listen to me unless someone qualified mentions it!
Bet Rollo is gorgeous

Your puppy is a baby and is learning bite inhibition. It's an important stage of learning in puppy's life. Google 'bite inhibition' by Ian Dunbar to read about why.

Rolo will grow out of it, but it'll take quite some time. It's normal behaviour in a puppy that small - like children they learn through play, and that's what he's doing. It is categorically not the sign of a vicious dog - more one who is learning about everything around him. You will have to teach him what he can bite and what he can't - and reading the article will show you why he's doing it.

With regard to the children, shouting lots of different commands will never work - it'll just wind him up more and more. I'd suggest they immediately stand up, and make like trees with their backs to him. It has to be an immediate disengagement from the game (because that's what it is to him). If you observe dogs learning and playing together alone, that's exactly what the adult dogs do with pups when they're too much. They walk off, don't make eye contact - they just stop playing. To the puppy, lots of flailing arm and shouting are all part and parcel of the game.

If I were you, as the adult, I'd give a firm no, stop the game, hand over a toy instead and lavish praise. It'll work, but it'll take time.

You can't have had him for long? A week or so? He no doubt has had a lot to adapt to in a very short space of time. Don't expect miracles!

I must admit I found the first few weeks very challenging from the biting point of view. Since you have a similar type of dog I can sympathise. (Golden Retrievers are just hairy labs aren't they? ) Turning away and ignoring was just impossible. You can't ignore a 8kg pup hanging off your arm or leg. I used to fend off full-blown attacks with a soft toy or tuggy rope. With lesser attacks I would say "No" firmly, and put him in his puppy pen for a few minutes to calm down. It definitely got better after the first 2-3 weeks. If I remember correctly biting was then limited to times that he was over-excited. And by the time his adult teeth came in the problems had disappeared completely. Has he got anything like a puppy nylabone he can chew? Our pup really liked these. (Rawhide chews don't appear to be recommended for under 4 months of age.)

Definitely agree with your trainer never ever ever replace the arm, clothes with a toy.

You get a bored dog jumps up at children or adults grabs clothes and is rewarded by being given a toy - result! The dog will always bite and nip for attention.

What works for your dog is the right way! (Ask 6 dog trainers and you will 6 different ways!!) Agree that children shouting commands will wind up a dog so get them to act as a tree and you to give the command be it drop, ouch, no - doesn't really matter as long as you are consistent every time. I go for a yelp when they are tiny but usually just stand really still and the second they release praise. However a very determined nipper may need it to be made clearer what is behaviour is acceptable and then I would give a verbal command.

at Goldens being hairy Labs... No, no, no...

The Ian Dunbar article is a good one, the link is here:

www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=64170.0;wap2

I thought you might disagree with my definition of a Golden, midori

minimu, I can see that fending off attacks with a toy is rewarding the bad behaviour, but I must admit at times my main aim was survival!

Purplefrog dogs are clever they get to train us before we can train them

I too got very confused between the schools of thought when my puppy arrived. Ranging from "I'll just hit her" ( thanks MIL) to " put her in the sin bin" ( the vet nurse) " you must never say no because that reinforces the behaviour with attention", ( the first dog trainer I spoke to).

At 5 months old we are getting there - she does not chase our toes or swing on our trouser legs in the same way but still leaps on to armchairs when my DD (9) is on them. DD unfortunately has made a drama out of the whole thing and behaves like a hostage under sniper fire, running from room to room screaming that the puppy is biting her even when she is nowhere near.

I have found back turning to be reasonably effective combined with rewarding Sit with attention or a treat.

Thank you for all the advice. Had the dog trainer again today who reiterated what everyone is saying and we're trying or best to follow through - though this is still hard if Rollo is racing after one of us and leaping up and holding onto clothes or flesh. I have to say it's never in an aggressive way but always as a 'game' and we're all doing our best not to make it any fun and I'm trying to pull him away with his harness and long house lead and then either walk away - giving no attention - or leave him alone in a room for a minute.

He's doing really well generally. He seems to learn v v quickly and can now do Sit, Come Here, Down, Drop, Leave and Stay and is beginning to walk a tiny dostance ona lead without pulling or biting it.

Tomorrow we go to our first puppy class which - by coincidence - is run by our one-to-one trainer's trainer! She (our trainer) says it should be v good. the one based at the vets wasn't going to work out at all - much too late at night, a whole hr long and run by someone actively against clicker training.

Our one-to-one trainer thinks Rollo (and all of us) are doing well and the only thing really is me getting over anxious about whether or not I'm doing enough for Rollo! She thinks I could relax a bit more!

Rollo is now 10 weeks old today and has transformed froma plump cute puppy thing to a tiny and magnificent version of a golden retriever. We're enjoying him a lot of the time and exasperated with him slightly less of the time. He likes to come and flop most of his body across your legs and get petted and stroked. He's had no accidents in the house at all since one tiny wee on his 2nd or 3rd day here. He goes for 10 + hrs a night happily and I actually wake him in the morning, often, rather than him needing to wake me!

Thanks for the links to Ian Dunbar articles about biting and also the book The Culture Clash. I've got and read the book and am re-reading the Dunbar stuff which I'd also read before. Finding time to read anything at all at present is really hard as I've lost just about all my 'down time/ inbetween time'. I know it'll get easier though.

You know when they look you straight in the eyes with their melting brown ones for ages? Well it seems as if he's trying to read my mind! I presume it actually means something completely different but it's very endearing

Rollo has his second vaccinations tomorrow and a week later can at last go out and about properly, which I'm sure will bring a whole new set of challenges!

Does anyone except me actually watch 'It's Me Or The Dog'? I think that program is great. Victoria Stilwell is a great dog trainer IMO. She says that when a puppy bites/nips during play, yelp, stand up straight, turn your back and fold your arms. You're boring like that and if you do that everytime your dog bites/nips they will associate it with the biting and should soon stop doing it.