Burns food, any thoughts, experience please?

[VinoEsmeralda]

We rehomed a lab cross springer 3 months ago. When he arrived here he was on Bakers and had terrible sore ears and runny poohs. Changed the food to Arden Grange Lamb and Rice which has done him the world of good skin wise (ears lovely and clean) and also less hyper ( or this could be just settling in)

However he is v v skinny But more food just doesnt seem to put weight on him but he just does 3-4 large poohs a day so seems to go straight through him. He is v active ,roughly 2 hr a day off lead time plus loads of swimming.

He has beautiful shiney coat so isnt unwell I think. Anyway a friend of mine recommended Burns and their high energy or canine extra seems good for him.

Does it really do what is says on the site? Seems to be to good to be true TBH...

Burns is fabulous food and has sorted many problems for my dogs. Arden Grange is very similar to Burns in terms of ingredients, but has a higher quantity of protein and fat in it.

But the first questions are how old is your dog? How much does he weigh and how much are you feeding him daily in grams?

Can you see his spine? How much covering is there over his ribs? Does his skin feel like sheet over them, or a blanket?

I gave Burns to my Boxer as she was having tummy and weight problems.
She lost 6kg on Burns and looked like death for 2 months. I used their direct support line for weeks as I was concerned, got loads of free sacks of food, but in the end had to stop using it as she would have died.
She now has Iams. She is in very good health. She is a very happy and content girly, she is the perfect weight and plays and sleeps well.

My advice is to step away from Burns.

Burns is a good food, but it is inclined to keep them on the lean side, so if you want it for weight gain, it maybe not your best option.

We are currently on Jollyes own and have been for quite some time. Annoyingly, they have just changed the meat content to 30% instead of 40%, but that's still equivalrnt to most of the 'premium' brands such as JWB, Burns etc. It is very good for keeping good weight on and a great coat, and despite it containing some ingredients which I would have usually steered away from as they are common causes of allergies (maize for one) my dogs are in better condition than ever. skin problems gone. I have gome from using 3-4 sacks of JWB a month for three large dogs to 2-3 sacks of the Jollyes a month for 3 large and one medium dog, they just need much less to maintain the same weight.

Something else that will help is increasing the number of meals rather than just the amount, so 3-5 meals per day, rather than two larger ones.

I'd concur with the posts above. I have two dogs - one does very well on Burns, the other has to be fed one of the working dog foods from Arden Grange (tried him on Burns, even the high energy one, and he just looked like a toast rack). It all depends on whether your dog is prone to putting on weight or is on the lean side.

Thank you so much for all your replies! Fell alseep last night and been at work most of today (and walking the dog ).

Daisy
Just weighed him now (my scales) and he weighs 21.3kg, was 24kg last time they weighed him at Vets

He is nearly 3 (in May) and you can sometimes see his ribs (depends some days you can some times you cant) but he has a very small 'waist'. There is little covering over his ribs but it feels like a blanket (I think, not sure what you meant with that but take it it is loose and not tight).

You cant see his spine but can see the top of the hip bones at the back.I currently give him 550gr of Arden Grange Lamb and rice plus he gets lots of training treats (if he wants but normally not interested when outside)

I like the idea of three or more small feeds a day, Midori, will give more time to digest properly I suppose...

I received three packets of trail food from Burtns today (Canine Extra, High energy lamb and Burns Active) Will read all information over the next few days and make up my mind.

In the mean time and tips or ideas please do let me know

Vino

My first thought is that 550g is a lot of food. My very active labs weigh 24kg and 28kg, and eat about 200 and 250g of food over 2 meals each. They couldn't process 550g of food a day - the bulk of the food would pass straight through them in the form of lots of poo before they could get the nutrition out of it.

If he's lost over 3kgs in 3 months, I wonder if he has a food intolerance somewhere. It would tie in with the skin problems he had with Bakers, I think.

If he were mine, I'd reduce the total quantity of food, increase the number of meals a day and switch him to a rice free food - Burns do a pork and potato at 18.5% protein and 10% fat but Pets at Home do a really good own brand food, Wainwrights, which has a salmon and potato dry food at 21% protein and 10% fat.

I'd choose the Wainwrights because of the higher protein content and feed him at a rate of 10g per kg of body weight, and choose the weight you want him to end up at. I'd aim for 24kg to start with - so feed him 240g over 3 meals a day and see what happens. I'd be looking for a reduction in quantity and number of poos; for the 'pile' to be the size of a tennis ball/cricket ball. Both my adult dogs poo twice a day and it's easily picked up with one hand, iyswim! Sorry for the poo talk, but it's a valuable indication of how much of the food they take in is actually being digested.

I'm wary of suggesting Burns for him (even though I heart it) - they're famous for producing lean dogs - and their higher energy foods (similar in values to the Wainwrights) all contain rice in one form or another.

Thank you very much Daisy

I know its too much (silly really) increased it to more only recently and since yesterday have decided to very gradually lower the food amount back to the recommended amount. We also used to give him left over veg (no butter or seasoning on it) and have not done so much recently. He also loves an apple (probably becasue it looks like a ball!!).

I think he lost weight as he is so active, the people who had him before didnt walk him much (let alone swim every day)and he quite often was locked in a little room and v sadly caged in the garage at night/evenings in a crate too small for him to even sit up in.

BUT dont discount the possibility of food tolerance at all. Dont you think the food with the brown rice as oppposed to white rice might be an alternative?

I have been googling Burns more now and it seems very good for dogs prone to being overweight but not too underweight dogs so will have a look into Wainwrights.

And dont worry talking about poo, it s a favorite subject in this house!

Our girls all get left over veg and fruit - the puppy has cleared our garden of carrots and now moved onto the beetroot because she loves veg so much .

If he enjoys veg, I really would immediately drop the quantity of dried food and for a while you could bulk it up a little with veg while he adjusts to the new portion size and increase the frequency of feeding to 3 or 4 smaller meals a day.

I've just had a look at the ingredient list of Arden Grange; it is already high in protein at 25% and fat at 16%. Feeding rate guides are notoriously generous, and you're feeding him enough to keep a 55-60kg dog going! Keeping the quantity as high as it is is honestly doing him no favours at all.

The Arden Grange lamb and rice does contain maize which is can be a problem for dogs to digest - but they do make a fish and potato based one which looks pretty good.

If he were mine, I'd get him away from the meat and rice combo in the short term just to get those kgs back on. There is another fabulous food which I didn't think about last night - [http://www.fish4dogs.com/Products/Working-Dog-Fish-Complete.aspx# Fish4Dogs]] which is highly recommended.

He's obviously had a massive amount of stress and change in the last few months - changing from such heartbreaking circumstances to living in a loving home is quite a change. That, no doubt will increase the rate at which he has burned through food. He has had an awful start - and is now clearly very blessed to have found his forever home.

Thank you, strangely when I switched foods (from bakers) I nearly bought the Salmon one but as its more expensive though I'd try the other one first...

Anyway I have bought the salmon/potatoe one plus the treats as well. Will give him three feeds a day (small ones) and veg&fruit peelings& leftovers. Hopefully he will gain some weight soon.

Trainer at classes today said he was on the thin side (rib covering fine but could feel spine slightly) and could gain a little to be in perfect healthy weight. (they feed their dogs arden grange salmon as well).

Thank you so much for your help. Only one more big thing to sort: pulling on the lead and then I have the perfect dog!

It is more expensive - but then the cheaper sack must have been going down at such a rate that that would have ended up being quite pricey too!

I hope it helps - and that the volume of poo goes down. That'll be the first indication that he's getting more nutrition from the food.

Pulling on the lead! That'll take a while to sort. There are hundreds of different methods on here, but I think working a short lead (so he's just at your side) and tweaking it back at every hint of a pull, not enough to hurt, but enough for them to feel it. And if pulling happens, I do a quick 180 and stride off in the opposite direction.

Lessons little and often - maybe 5 or 10 minutes two or three times a day - just on lead work, to start with in a place with no distractions. Up and down the garden maybe? Lots of positive praise and treats if you want to use them. I wouldn't try to do it on the way to a walk or anywhere he's really excited about.

Oh yes - and always to the same side of you. Don't let him cross sides. I always have my dogs on my left so my right hand is free for useful things.

And then, once he's learned not to pull on lead you can move on to walking to heel without a lead .....

I think Orijen is the best dog food I have used over 16 years, with four dogs. Very high quality.

Thanks Daisy.

He walks beautifully on command heel (using a ball for reward) either on or off lead.

He just cant walk on loose lead. Asa he pulls I stop and walk backwards or if he pulls to the right I go left ect.. When I am on my own he is fine but if with the DC or other people he will pull like there is no tomorrow. Only been relatively short time so I musnt get too impatient but its v frustrating!

Re the food, he is now on the grey Arden Grange bag(fish and potato) and on three small portions plus veg &fruit peelings a day and it seems to work. Less poo and looks like he is gaining a little weight (will weigh him again later this week).

Thank you so much for your help!

I am feeding my 14month old GSD on burns and he is failing to gain weight. I know he is young and they do fill out when older but I would like a little bit more of a covering on him you can feel ribs and backbone etc without pouttin any pressure on your hands Some say he is OK and to keep him lean because of joints and others say he woud be better with a little bit more weight on him
I am thinking of changing him to eukanuba which he was on as a puppy, did well on it but was a bit hyper hence the change to burns
I wonder why you are considering Iams and what is the difference as I think it is the same company. Comments appreciated

Vino it sounds as though he's doing OK on the fish and potato - how's the poo?! And how's his weight? Are things looking up?

Chat - Are you feeding your GSD what they recommend? And what is going on with his weight? Is it actually coming off him? At 14 months a big dog is likely to look a bit skinny. Iams and Eukanuba are both owned by the same company who have done quite a lot of animal experimenting to refine their product. For that reason, I could never recommend them. They also use un-named animal fat which worries me, and wheat which is a common allergen in dogs.

If your dog is otherwise happy on Burns and not actually losing weight, perhaps consider buying a sack of their higher energy food - active or similar - and mixing it with the regular food on a half and half basis until you find the right combination to get some weight on.

Daisy Shop run out of the Arden grange Sensitive so bought the large breed puppy got him and he seems to love it. The three meals a day works really well and he has put a little weight back on. Weighed him this afternoon and he weighed 21.7kg so little more (he has been out for most of yesterday and lots of ball throwing this afternoon so v pleased with that)

Poo- first poo is lovely, small and firm but on a few occassions he has had a few loose ones after the first one (same walk) which is usually after a lot of swimming or running...

Tuesday we will be back on the Arden Grange Sensitive and see how that goes...

Thank you very much for your help- very much appreciated!

Just to let you know that the Arden grange Sensitive is brilliant so far. Three small meals a day and he is doing 2-3 small firm poo's a day.

Now swapping all his treats as well making sure they dont have rice or maize in them.

He is nearly on the perfect weight I think!

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your help!!

I missed the update! Bugger.

I am so pleased he's making progress on different food. All the things you said did point to an intolerance in him - and with the rate of weight loss, it sounded pretty important to go for a complete change.

When you're happy he's at the perfect weight and stable, you can probably drop him back to 2 meals a day by gradually increasing his portion size at breakfast and supper while slowly reducing the size of his lunch. I'm just at the end of doing that with our puppy and she's now happy with a carrot for lunch with not too much huffing .

Well done. He's a very, very lucky boy to have found you.

Its probably a bit late to throw my ten pence worth in now as it looks like you have the problem sussed (you have a LOT of patience, your dog is a very lucky boy!) but if you're still having trouble in the future, tripe may be worth a try, I've used it in the past when my dog had intolerances, was losing some of her coat and not keeping weight on. You can mix it in with some complete dog food, but it really is great for putting some weight on and solidifying their poo! unfortuanetly is a bit smelly but if you have freezer space these days you can buy it in convenient frozen portions.
Anyway, it sounds like you've got the problem sorted but it may be worth a thought if you have any probs in the future.
I also tried Burns for my dog who was a pointer and it went straight through her and she lost a lot of weight,the only thing that worked for her in the end was Skinner's sensitive and tripe.
Good luck :)

Quick update- neighbours left bread out on the front lawn yesterday and he sprinted off when left of the lead and had a fair bit by the time I cought up with him. Result- double pooh's and less solid too so definately need to stay away from food with maize, flour and cereal I think.

Thanks highlandbird a friend of mine did suggest this too and I will get some when I get at Petplanet (or something like that in Oxford). Would be good when we know he will have long walks @agilty to ensure he wont loose the weight he put on.

Also would you know a similar type of food in case he gets fed up with the Arden grange potato/fish?

Blimey - what a clear cut reaction.

And a reminder of how rotten he must have felt on the cereal heavy food.

About getting fed up with food - dogs just aren't like us. They don't get fed up with the same old food day after day, they seem to enjoy each bowlful as much as the last. It is possible to teach them to be fussy by keep changing their food and whipping it away if they are a little sniffy about it.

Mine have been on the same food for years - I haven't even changed the flavour and they still love it (a 10 year old, a 5 year old and an 8 month old pup). If they do go off their food, I give them about 15 minutes to change their mind and then whip it away until the next meal.

Our 10 year old is not a big eater and was often less than keen about food so we've fiddled with the quantity until it's right for her - she eats much less than our other 2 labs - but then she's a lazy old baggage who would sleep all day if she could . She was my DH's dog before we married, and we couldn't keep the weight on her either. She was so very skinny - you could see all the bones in her spine and a lot of her pelvis and in her case it was because she just wouldn't eat. It's taken quite a lot of perseverance to get enough weight on her too.