Why are some dog trainers so anti treats?

[SlubberIsNotGettingEHU]

I got another gun dog training book out of the library yesterday. There are only two so my choice is rather limited.

In this one, same as the last one, and in various other non gun dog training books there is an extreme anti sentiment by some towards using treats during training.

Why is this?

Of course what is fine apparently is dragging your dog round by the scruff of it's neck, shaking it, glaring into its eyes at close range etc etc

After reading that bit I turned to the front expecting to find the book had been published in 1978 or some such. Nope, 2006.

What is it that the anti treat people are worried about? I'm genuinely interested. Is it to do with dominance theory or something else?

I don't know either, but when I used to have a gundog tpye (Italian Spinone) I couldn't use treats with him in training class because he was just SO bulimically obsessed with food that he just couldn't think about anything else at all when he saw food, couldn't focus on what was asked of him.

But he was pretty untrainable by any menas.

Current dog is much more toy focussed than treats focussed. That is good, because the play reward can be build into the actual tasks of training in more varies ways than the treats reward?

But then you say these books don't like toys as rewards either. Perhaps the idea is that the actual task performance has to be rewarding in itself?

I thought it was quite simple and sensible - if the training relies on treats (or toys) then things may go to pot if you are out and about and don't have any with you. Whereas you can always give your dog attention and say 'Good boy!'

Because they are stupid, ignorant and do not know how to train dogs.

If you want scientific evidence of why treating and rewards work then read How Dogs Learn by Mary R Burch Phd and Jon S Burley Phd.

It is like bringing up children there are many Psychologist out there who talk rubbish same I am afraid with dogs

I can understand why a dog would learn NOT to do something if it was associated it with being shaken but I can't quite grasp why a dog would do something for just a bit of verbal praise.

I've read this several times now. What's in it for the dog being called good girl? Sure if you get good girl AND a treat then yes good girl = nice things, but words on their own?

And yet obviously these trainers have uber obedient dogs just with using verbal praise. Eleison I guess doing the actual retrieves or whatever is very rewarding but getting them to do them properly from the get go... How does that work?

Grimma with the food and toys thing, my understanding was that when you got to a certain level of the dog following a cue and then getting a reward for it you could start to wean off the treats and then the dog is using the, um, not sure what the technical phrase is, gambling phenomenon. So if you blow the whistle and it comes back it is doing so because it MIGHT get a bit of cheese or a game of tug. And that apparently is a stronger motivator tha getting a treat every time.

My dog is indifferent to me calling him a good boy. I could call him bad dog in the same tone of voice and he'd still wag his tail.

I have a feeling he may not speak English

Cat-dog loves getting praised. But it's the tone of voice she loves, not the words. A belly rub is almost as good to her as a treat is. She is a people dog. Training still works quicker with treats though.

I'd be interested in non-treat training methods because my dog is the least food motivated dog I've ever known. When outdoors (or indoors when we went to classes) she totally ignores - or even spits out food - I tried training her with cheese/sausage and she took a piece to be 'polite' and then promptly dropped it - it would have been eaten at home.
I find effusive praise works quite well to reinforce recall, but sadly a good angry shout seems to be needed to interrupt her occasional bad behavior - something I suspect that pre-dates our ownership.

I've never heard any advice not to use treats at all, just that you shouldn't rely on them.

Our last dog was an incredibly fussy eater who'd turn up his nose at most treats, he really did respond to verbal/physical reward better. The current model I do indeed employ torn-up schmackos

Is there maybe an issue with gundogs in particular that you don't want them to associate working with eating at all in case they suddenly realise, sod the little treat, I've got a whole bloody pheasant here? (I have no idea about gundogs, just speculating if there could be a reason)

Toys, Beamur, toys.

Tugs, squeakers, tennis balls, furry tug teddies - you can even get squeaky furry tug teddies that are weighted enough that you can throw them, these are The Devil Dogs favourites.

Failing that a live squirrel, but animal welfare groups tend to frown upon that, as do other dog walkers

I suppose that from tiny puppyhood we 'condition' phrases like 'Good dog' (and the tones in which they are spoken) by associating them with positive physical contact (playful, comforting, etc), so perhaps a 'words only' reward can rely on that prior association.

I certainly wouldn't want to do without toys, though. They are such a powerful motivator for my dog; they make it all 100x more rewarding.

mm you could be right Grimma. The way It is written in the books it almost feels like they view giving treats as some sort of soft wussy lentil weavery option that will only lead to something BAD...they never say what it is though, although gobbled up pheasant is obviously not really a desirable result.

Beertricks my dogs aren't allowed balls except during training either and not all training, just difficult stuff. That way it keeps the ball very high value to the dog and means I can use them to my full advantage. It's just another method of reward based training.

Having been on quite a few shoots and seen appallingly behaved dogs, some complete with electric shocki collars and several even getting put back in the car as they are 'an embarrassment', you'd think the poo poo'ers would be trying something new out by now, wouldn't you?!

I have heard people say 'if they are working for a treat they are not working for you'. Well, if they are buggering off when youc all them and even ignoring a 'sit' command, they aren't working for you either, are they?

Ours are trained with treats and it would never occur to them to eat what they are picking up. For a start, one of them is far too 'posh' to eat anything with a bone in, don'tcha know?!

We're even managing to train the lab/staff/collie to pick up rabbits for us using treats, although I am not sure my DH would ever be brave enough to take him on a 'proper' shoot...

That's interesting midori. I have a crufts like obedience vision of shoots with rows of perfectly trained retrievers and spaniels sitting stone like gazing up at their owners waiting for their command.

Mostly I think from a mistaken belief that dogs "should work to please you, not to get treats". Which stems from...

A complete misunderstanding of how dogs learn.

I mean the "willing to please" myth.... does anyone really think that a dog, being as it is a fairly simple "I do this/that happens" type of beast, has a) Any knowledge of our inner workings/emotions or b) Give a hoot about them even if it did??

A dog might well work to make you happy/pleased, because when you're happy/pleased then good things tend to happen for the dog... but then we're back to "I do this/that happens".

The don't give a shit whether we're pleased or not!

I can't give my dog squeaky toys as she gets a bit weirded out when they squeak - I'm not sure if she thinks she's hurt it, or just doesn't like the noise. I also can't give her anything on a rope or that could be taken apart - she has awesome powers of destruction. Ball on a rope toy lasted less than one walk.

What does work though is balls (but must be solid latex/rubber type, tennis balls last one throw only and are popped). She can be kept very engaged with a ball, but the downside is she expects every walk to be a high octane ball chasing experience!

Last weekend I saw the laziest way ever to exercise an energetic dog, using a ball.

Guy standing on bridge over the Ribble. Dog (who knows the drill rushes along bridge, down path, waits on bank a little downstream; guy drops ball down, dog swims out, retrieves, take ball up path, back to owner ...repeat ad lib.